You can't blame this on Mexico. We're not talking about weed or cocaine. This is our dilemma.

My recollection is that the source of the majority of illegally obtained opioids comes from friends and relatives either given freely, sold or stolen.

There needs to be better accountability for these prescription drugs. But I don't have any ideas on how that can be accomplished.

The problem is, there are plenty of people already who could use some legitimate pain relief being denied due to doctors being gun-shy about prescribing for fear of prosecution.

More regulation won't help much. Just make it a felony to overdose on opioids subject to the death penalty upon conviction. Put the responsibility where it belongs, the end user.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
Good luck linking the dealer to the dope used to OD. Especially if the dead guy had a history of opiate abuse.

This was my thought as well. Unless they also want each dose serialized so it can be tracked back to the manufacture and distributor.

Trying to legislate this behavior out of existence is ridiculous. Didn't we try that with alcohol once?

I'm ok with it. I think the main target is the fact that many of the dealers/sellers are normally able to get off with a slap on the wrist the majority of the time. This gives the courts something extra to slap them with to warrant harsher punishments.

It'll obviously not stop the behavior, but provides an additional avenue to lock up the other side of the OD for a longer period.

Throw whatever charges you want at the scum, as long as they don't get thrown out or reduced like the other BS that happens all too often.

This is going to have an unintended effect of causing MORE people to die of overdoses.

Shared some of your drugs with a friend? See friend ODing? Call the cops and go to jail for manslaughter? Nope.

I don't think prohibition works - even if you were to legalize all drugs, I'm fairly certain most people would not pick up IV heroin use as a hobby.

The biggest problem is that we don't agree on the problem; we don't see the issue (Addiction) in a reasonable, common way.

Too many think it's a self-control issue and think it's a matter of will. Next time you get diarrhea, control that ... others, even very esteemed "addiction specialist" will claim it's a psychological issue that has origins in some childhood trauma, which once dealt with removes the obsession. I disagree with both.

I have seen this issue up close and very personal. I won't go into details on a public forum, but when you have to live it or help a close relative (parent, child, spouse, grandchild, etc.), or friend, it helps to know what the exact fuck you're dealing with. It is life and death; literally. Seeing someone you love OD with blue lips from opiates is a horror I wish on no one.

As most who've read my posts on this topic will recognize that my position is thus:

• Addiction is a brain chemistry disorder, where the addict has a genetic predisposition to metabolize certain chemicals (different drugs for different folks, i.e. alcohol, meth/crank/stimulants, cocaine, pot, opiates, benzos/downers, etc.). This is a disease as the AMA classified in 1955.
  
• It is a disease that screws with your ability to understand what you have. It is characterized by a false triggering of the pleasure/reward system in your brain, creating the wrong/false neurotransmitters to be created/recepted by the addict's brain. They have no more control over their thinking, usually sacrificing everything of value (love, money, relationships, material items, etc) for the sake of feeling "OK" with the world.
  
• People confuse what being "high" is - tis not the dopey, blurry feeling most think of. Rather, the red flag for anyone is if you take a substance and you feel/experience euphoria. That is the marker for addiction.
  
• This in no way excuses their behaviors. Addicts are still responsible for their actions and consequences. Many try to conflate a disease with a ready-made excuse for the addict's actions. This couldn't be further from reality. You steal, you kill (accidently or not) you must make restitution to victims and society. Accountability is still paramount.
  
• Until we agree on what the problem is, we can't find a solution. Recidivism among addicts is very high, with unbelievable failure rates. This tells us what is and isn't working. Currently, it takes a huge "bottom" of despair, with a willingness to try anything to get well. Not many people ever face such a stern choice in their lives.
  
• Lastly, prohibiting access to medication that is OK for 80% of the population makes no sense whatsoever.
  

To me, penalizing the manufacturer is pointless. First, it's already illegal. Even philosophically wrong as it places the focus on the wrong subject.

Get agreement on what we are dealing with first, then we can create a sensible plan.

Here is a simple read if you really, honestly want to understand addiction: Why Can't Johnny Just Quit?: A Common Sense Guide to Understanding Addiction

If "they" really wanted to end it, it's as easy as flying a plane over the fields and spraying it with roundup...but that would mean invading the airspace of other countries...like Afghanistan, Turkey, Columbia, Mexico, South America....and so on.

My biggest kid was in the shitcanastan and they were made to march around the poppy fields so the troops wouldn't hurt the farmer's crop...no one eats poppy plants...they should have been allowed to burn all the crops they tripped over...but no-the US (we the taxpayers) had to pay the farmer for injuries...

One year of good spraying would eradicate the poppy and the "farmers" could work on a real crop to feed their families.

But we won't. There is too much money in the process of fighting the "war against drugs".

Para, I'm with you. Let them OD and thin the herd. They should take narcan off the shelves and let them expire.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by tanksoldier:
We need to do something but I don't think this is it.

What we need to do is let these fools keep killing themselves with this stuff, preferably before they breed.
That's my solution. Let society cleanse itself. But, again, I am not a state legislator. Can you imagine if some state official came out and said his solution to this epidemic is the one I just described? They'd be out of office within two days.

I think that is what will ultimately happen. Sure, legislators will grandstand and legislate, but eventually the epidemic will burn itself out. It's too pervasive, addiction very difficult to treat, and there is such limited resources for folks who really want help, much less those who need help and either don't want it or don't realize it. Sad, hopefully not too defeatist, but that's what I think. But like I've said in another related thread, I'll keep trying and doing what I do.

So if it will "burn itself out" - why do we still have alcoholism 2000 years later? Even post-prohibition?

You don't even know what it is ... but I guess if watching your children die is the cost of improving society, then Aldous Huxley is your kind of man.

quote:

Originally posted by DitchDoctor911:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by tanksoldier:
We need to do something but I don't think this is it.

What we need to do is let these fools keep killing themselves with this stuff, preferably before they breed.
That's my solution. Let society cleanse itself. But, again, I am not a state legislator. Can you imagine if some state official came out and said his solution to this epidemic is the one I just described? They'd be out of office within two days.

I think that is what will ultimately happen. Sure, legislators will grandstand and legislate, but eventually the epidemic will burn itself out. It's too pervasive, addiction very difficult to treat, and there is such limited resources for folks who really want help, much less those who need help and either don't want it or don't realize it. Sad, hopefully not too defeatist, but that's what I think. But like I've said in another related thread, I'll keep trying and doing what I do.

It will just burn itself out, just like the raging Diabetes (type 2) epidemic will burn itself out.

I don't think so.

I'm in the camp of let them kill themselves. Tired of saving the same people over and over again. Yes I know it's my job but I don't have to like it.

In the case of heroin, when a junky OD's, the surrounding junkys take notice. They typically try to buy from the same dealer as the OD "proves" the dealer has the potent stuff. There is a whole underworld to it. Pills in SFlorida have become harder to get so heroin is the rage. Addicts substitute one addiction for another. The cure is to cure the urge of addiction. Addicts will huff gasoline, freon, even butane lighters. Anything to escape reality. It really becomes a personal choice of consequences must outweigh the high for someone to quit and even then they often don't. I'm with Chowser for the most part. It seems cold but you see day after day addicts are offered help from law enforcement yet choose to steal, burglarize, rob and cause harm to themselves as well as others. Addicts have to feed their habit somehow. The heroin addicts are treated with narcan to block the effects of the opiates and are saved from OD, over and over. meanwhile non addicts can't get basic meds for common illness because they can't afford them. Sorry for the rant but it's kind of like welfare recipients abusing the system, getting free shit the payee can't afford.

There isn't a magic bullet. The State of Utah in 2015 did a significant revamp of their criminal justice system to try and address the drug problem in the state. Using the Pew Charitable Trust and scientific data, the state's entire attitude towards drug crimes changed with a view towards more treatment and less punitive or jail time. The jury is still out to see if the changes are working or will work. Here is a link to Utah's change. http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/re...inal-justice-reforms

From what I have seen, the most successful component in stopping a drug addict is the addict himself. IOW, he has finally decided he wants to stop and and looks for and/or accepts help. Even if the treatment and initial change is successful, they still have a life-time of trying to keep their addiction under control. Most fail.

quote:

Originally posted by Rightwire:

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
Good luck linking the dealer to the dope used to OD. Especially if the dead guy had a history of opiate abuse.

This was my thought as well. Unless they also want each dose serialized so it can be tracked back to the manufacture and distributor.

Depending upon the local population size it is actually not that difficult.
This has already been successfully done here on the local and federal levels.

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
This is going to have an unintended effect of causing MORE people to die of overdoses.

Shared some of your drugs with a friend? See friend ODing? Call the cops and go to jail for manslaughter? Nope.

Many states are passing laws that if you call for help during an OD you can't be charged with drug related offenses associated with that incident.

If it puts the idiots selling away longer, it works for me.

I think I'm going to side with FL on this one. While it does have the 'make it extra illegal' feel to it, I believe it has some merit.

First, I do believe there are ways to track drugs and their sources. This would help narrow it down to the dealer/source.

Second, Black92LX is correct about several states making the change about calling for help and not getting charged. Mixed feelings about that one.

Thirdly, FL has a 3 strikes law. This may be a way to permanently get dealers off the streets, heavy- and ham handed it first appears to be. If drug dealers cause the death of someone and generally bring society down, I can think of no one else I would like to see locked up.

From a personal viewpoint, I am for it. Living in NH, I do see a fair amount of people wrapped up in this problem. I have known people who have died from it, and friends of friends. There was even a woman arrested earlier this week for shooting up while giving birth. We, as a nation, need to get this under control. No one benefits from these drugs.

how about manslaughter with special circumstances