I don't understand why the R's insist on this turd polishing plan of theirs. Either do it right or don't do anything at all. Anything in the middle will result in them taking the blame when it inevitably collapses.

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Originally posted by EmpireState:

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Originally posted by Skins2881:

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I disagree with several of your points and assumptions.

Very valid points, you have convinced me, I have changed several of my points and assumptions.

Thanks for the enlightenment.

Well I disagree with your comparison between someone getting DUI's and paying more and someone getting sick and paying more. You generally dont choose to get life altering illnesses. You also make a point about keeping coverage at all costs. Frankly, thats not always possible and you know it. Sometimes life happens....you lose your job and can't choke down 1800/month cobra while your sick and can't work. The pre-existing thing became a big issue because of the way insurance companies were treating people and the misery they put them through.

They can make all these changes and we'll see where premiums go. Something tells me not down though. The American people in general are being given a raw deal from the health care industry and the politicians that represent us.

Screw it then... Let's follow the path. Single payer it is then. Everyone gets coverage, everyone pays. Russia, GB, Europe, any Communist country has got it right. USA fucked it up and it just came to fruition 8.6 years ago when Obama came into office. Free markets and capitalism were stupid ideas.

Health care should be a right and not determined on risk factors or monetary status.

As for my example it is spot on. You don't usually choose family history of alcohol abuse, medical problems, or stupidity, you are correct.

You also don't choose to have a meteor drop on your head while walking your dog. Shall we legislate something that says every one is covered in every unfortunate accident or life circumstance?

It's really simple:

Free markets.

OR

Single payer.

I choose opt. #1

All I can say after reading the details of this turd of a different color is, I hope this bill crashes and burns once and for all in the Senate. We voted these assholes majorities with a handful of mandates. Close to the top of that short list was a full repeal of BarryCare. And this is what we get?

OK, let's get Hillary and a Democrat-controlled Senate on the job. How about that?

^^^^^

I've said it before: Trump accomplished 90% of what I needed when he prevented Hillary from winning. A SCOTUS appointment or two and he'll be at 99%. Anything else is a bonus, in my mind.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:
All I can say after reading the details of this turd of a different color is, I hope this bill crashes and burns once and for all in the Senate. We voted these assholes majorities with a handful of mandates. Close to the top of that short list was a full repeal of BarryCare. And this is what we get?

Life is hard for purists. It's never perfect enough.

Even if you changed the rules, it wouldn't be perfect, because not even all purists have the same idea of perfection.

There used to be a sizable number of citizens who believed in prohibition of alcohol. They worked and voted and went to meetings and rallies and carried on for decades until finally they were able to get a Constitutional Amendment ratified.

A sizable number of citizens didn't like that, so they organized, went to work, held meetings, rallies and after more than a decade of effort, got that repealed.

Civil right took many decades to get where it now is. Concealed carry is on the rise, after decades.

Purists on these issues have been miserable the entire time.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:
All I can say after reading the details of this turd of a different color is, I hope this bill crashes and burns once and for all in the Senate. We voted these assholes majorities with a handful of mandates. Close to the top of that short list was a full repeal of BarryCare. And this is what we get?

Life is hard for purists. It's never perfect enough.

Even if you changed the rules, it wouldn't be perfect, because not even all purists have the same idea of perfection.

There used to be a sizable number of citizens who believed in prohibition of alcohol. They worked and voted and went to meetings and rallies and carried on for decades until finally they were able to get a Constitutional Amendment ratified.

A sizable number of citizens didn't like that, so they organized, went to work, held meetings, rallies and after more than a decade of effort, got that repealed.

Civil right took many decades to get where it now is. Concealed carry is on the rise, after decades.

Purists on these issues have been miserable the entire time.

It's not a question of purity here. Reasonable people don't expect to get everything they want. The problem is one of accession to the liberal view of healthcare as a human right that must be protected by the federal government. It would have been one thing if the GOP scrapped Obamacare and tried to craft a bill that originated from their professed love of free markets. Within that framework, we could make compromises and not get everything we want but still end up with a better alternative to Obamacare.

Instead, the GOP has accepted that it is the role of the federal government to gurantee healthcare to all and is now struggling to craft a bill that is cosmetically acceptable to Republicans within that framework.

That right there is a huge win for Democrats. And you can be over the moon that Trump beat Hillary and thank your lucky stars for all the damage that has been avoided while still regretting this huge leftward paradigm shift.

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:
All I can say after reading the details of this turd of a different color is, I hope this bill crashes and burns once and for all in the Senate. We voted these assholes majorities with a handful of mandates. Close to the top of that short list was a full repeal of BarryCare. And this is what we get?

Life is hard for purists. It's never perfect enough.

Even if you changed the rules, it wouldn't be perfect, because not even all purists have the same idea of perfection.

There used to be a sizable number of citizens who believed in prohibition of alcohol. They worked and voted and went to meetings and rallies and carried on for decades until finally they were able to get a Constitutional Amendment ratified.

A sizable number of citizens didn't like that, so they organized, went to work, held meetings, rallies and after more than a decade of effort, got that repealed.

Civil right took many decades to get where it now is. Concealed carry is on the rise, after decades.

Purists on these issues have been miserable the entire time.

It's not a question of purity here. Reasonable people don't expect to get everything they want. The problem is one of accession to the liberal view of healthcare as a human right that must be protected by the federal government. It would have been one thing if the GOP scrapped Obamacare and tried to craft a bill that originated from their professed love of free markets. Within that framework, we could make compromises and not get everything we want but still end up with a better alternative to Obamacare.

Instead, the GOP has accepted that it is the role of the federal government to gurantee healthcare to all and is now struggling to craft a bill that is cosmetically acceptable to Republicans within that framework.

That right there is a huge win for Democrats. And you can be over the moon that Trump beat Hillary and thank your lucky stars for all the damage that has been avoided while still regretting this huge leftward paradigm shift.

This is what I don't get. No one I know of campaigned on this, no one says it out loud but when they go into session it obvious that the R party has changed its stance on what is a fundamental right and what isn't.

When did this change?

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
That right there is a huge win for Democrats.

Listen to me: CUT IT OUT

There's a short list of names in this forum of members who will never be pleased about what happens with this mess and every time they post on this subject, I end up gritting my teeth.

I'm telling you guys- and you know who you are- that you need to cool it, both for your sake and for mine. I am sick to death of hearing it. No one in this forum- no one- wants to listen to all that whining.

They need to reform the FDA so that people can get information to improve their health and not rely totally on drugs to cure their problem. Also breakup the monopoly on drug prices.

The low cost of vitamin D3 would greatly reduce cancer and other sicknesses.

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:
All I can say after reading the details of this turd of a different color is, I hope this bill crashes and burns once and for all in the Senate. We voted these assholes majorities with a handful of mandates. Close to the top of that short list was a full repeal of BarryCare. And this is what we get?

Life is hard for purists. It's never perfect enough.

Even if you changed the rules, it wouldn't be perfect, because not even all purists have the same idea of perfection.

There used to be a sizable number of citizens who believed in prohibition of alcohol. They worked and voted and went to meetings and rallies and carried on for decades until finally they were able to get a Constitutional Amendment ratified.

A sizable number of citizens didn't like that, so they organized, went to work, held meetings, rallies and after more than a decade of effort, got that repealed.

Civil right took many decades to get where it now is. Concealed carry is on the rise, after decades.

Purists on these issues have been miserable the entire time.

It's not a question of purity here. Reasonable people don't expect to get everything they want. The problem is one of accession to the liberal view of healthcare as a human right that must be protected by the federal government. It would have been one thing if the GOP scrapped Obamacare and tried to craft a bill that originated from their professed love of free markets. Within that framework, we could make compromises and not get everything we want but still end up with a better alternative to Obamacare.

Instead, the GOP has accepted that it is the role of the federal government to gurantee healthcare to all and is now struggling to craft a bill that is cosmetically acceptable to Republicans within that framework.

That right there is a huge win for Democrats. And you can be over the moon that Trump beat Hillary and thank your lucky stars for all the damage that has been avoided while still regretting this huge leftward paradigm shift.

Is there a way to get a full blown repeal of Obamacare through Congress right now and onto the
President's desk?

No. It might get passed in the House, but it's DOA in the Senate.

"Fine," you say, "change the Rules."

I'm not sure there is majority support in the Senate for it now. Everyone seems to have their own concept of what the end result should be. Their votes depend on getting at least some of what they want, maybe not a Cornhusker Kickback or a Louisiana Purchase, but some concession that muddies things a bit.

The members bitching about this have ignored the fact that this mess was created by Obama and the Dems, and that there is NO easy solution to it.

Oh, but it's the Republican's fault, and they should have done this and they should have done that and because they didn't do things exactly as all our experts say, well, that's why they have this mess and now they "own it".

If they had only listened to Joe Internet Guy, they wouldn't be in this mess, right? Yeah, it's just that simple.

No matter what solution ultimately is found, we'll still have members bitching about it. That's no exaggeration - no matter what happens, some of you will continue to bitch and I'm sick of it. I am full up to the top with it.

For the whiners today:




Link to original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAAKPJEq1Ew

(I love that song)

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:
All I can say after reading the details of this turd of a different color is, I hope this bill crashes and burns once and for all in the Senate. We voted these assholes majorities with a handful of mandates. Close to the top of that short list was a full repeal of BarryCare. And this is what we get?

You don't seem to understand that they just CANNOT yank Obamacare without something to take its place.

You don't see what a disaster that would be for the GOP? We would get killed in 2018 and most likely lose the WH and more in 2020.

Think, man!

One thing missing from the current discussion is the fact that health care costs were starting to soar before there was Obamacare. The then-existing market solution was not containing costs. There were no solutions that Republicans were able to advance to address the problems.

Many millions of people were effectively being locked out of protecting themselves from ever-escalating health costs. And, the ultimate burden was being placed back on tax payers because there has long been a notion that no one who shows up in dire straights should be denied hospital/emergency/life saving care.

Obamacare did not create the problem that it tried to address in its misguided ways. It seems certain that if everyone knew what was in the bill, it would have generated heat but maybe not much more light. The same people would have probably opposed it – all the Republicans. So much was left to future regulation that it was unknown from the outset. Obamacare doesn’t and didn’t work practically or philosophically.

The health care cost conundrum was not being addressed by the market before Obamacare. So, it seems wise for the Republicans to attempt to address the behemoth in some way now. The Freedom Caucus ultimately came to the conclusion that making some progress was better than making no progress. That was a more advanced assessment of the ideal/practical dilemma.

Given years to think up a good replacement and a simple connect the dot explanation of how any new proposal would address the pre-Obama problem for consumers, it seems reasonable to conclude that the ideal market solution would not yield any real improvement and that Republican factions had no cohesive solution.

So, President Trump comes along with a sense of compromise in tow to see what could be done. The Senate will largely ignore what was passed by the House while it creates its own version now. But, making some progress is underway. As much as that may offend someone’s sense of political philosophy, the alternative would deliver no improvement because terrible problems existed before Obamacare. Collapse would have only reinstated the problems that languished before Obamacare – after the interim, costly collapse chaos sorted out.

Politically, it is hard to see how anything but some compromise could get through the legislature in today’s environment. People who see SOME action inferior to gridlock may have a strong sense of political philosophy but many hard working people are and were unable to secure their own health care cost containment. What good do costs amounting to more than one’s income do for the hard working in our society?

Well, at least some improvement effort is underway. Griping about that effort misses the practical path for improvement. Krathhammer is wrong that the argument now rests entirely on government control of health care. Instead, the compromise steps away from that proposition in favor of returning many aspects back to the market.

But, more importantly, health care costs before Obamacare were increasingly beyond the average person’s control or options. Government was already hip deep in health care costs by providing a social net. It is hard to see how society should let its own people suffer when the means for care are readily available.

It is not as though the latest compromise by the Republicans reinforces a slide to single payor. It keeps alive the idea that good, hardworking middle class people should not find poverty or bankruptcy due to health care costs. Loafers are not the backbone of the economy and there seems to be some utility in addressing, in some meaningful way, how to keep the hard workers in the harness instead of seeing them destroyed because of health care costs.

The fact that the issue is in the hands and votes of the Republicans seems a good thing. It is clear that the left and far left, not to be redundant, only offer far worse alternatives.

Drama in the House as Obamacare Repeal Passes

GOPUSA Staff Kimberly Atkins, Boston Herald May 5, 20176 comments

WASHINGTON — There was plenty of theater – complete with yelling, singing and chanting – at the Capitol before, during and after the razor-thin 217-213 House vote to repeal and replace parts of Obamacare.

After hours of floor debate during which lawmakers frequently shouted over each other, spurring admonitions and repeated bangs of the gavel, the vote came. When the “yea” votes hit the needed 216 mark to pass yesterday, GOP lawmakers cheered. Democrats countered by waving and singing the refrain “Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye” — a message to their colleagues across the aisle that voters would punish them come re-election time.

But that was just the beginning of the drama — more is promised to come as House members head to their home districts for a weeklong recess. Yesterday, Democrats telegraphed the message they will take on the road.

“There’s a lot of, shall we say, kabuki here,” Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) told reporters. “But the kabuki doesn’t play at home, and we are going to make sure the people understand the inconsistency of it all.”

U.S. Rep. Greg Walden (R-Ore.) who chairs the House Energy and Commerce Committee, shot back, accusing Democrats of “fear-mongering.”

“You’re just making this stuff up,” Walden said angrily to Democrats, citing their claims that pre-existing coverage would be gutted and premiums would skyrocket under the Republican plan.

The Republicans’ jubilance over the House passage was tempered by a gaggle of reporters in the hallways peppering them with questions about the vote, including whether they were concerned about passing a measure without an evaluation by the Congressional Budget Office.

“I don’t think we should count on scores from any entity whose margin of error is plus or minus 400 percent, so I don’t care what the CBO score is,” said U.S. Rep. Louis Gohmert (R-Texas).

Republicans were also mindful that this victory, despite the cheers and celebratory White House event with GOP lawmakers that followed, could be short-lived.

“My only concern is the U.S. Senate,” Congressman Dave Brat (R-Va.), a member of the conservative House Freedom Caucus who GOP leaders worked hard to woo, told reporters with a nervous laugh. “If they come back with any big changes, that’ll make life a little tough.”

Link

I don't think the GOP has accepted federal control of medical care S much as it has accepted in the present configuration there is no way to get there.

How about changing rules? That solution is worse than the problem. How about we just shoot and replace Senators until we have 60 votes? There has to be some point where we can't go to get what we believe.

I think Trumps plan is to use the gun rights model.
Get what you can today to move the ball in the right direction, then go back for more whenever possible.
Getting the perfect plan passed, and everyone's opinion of what that is varies, is not realistic or obtainable.

"The perfect is the enemy of the good"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JALLEN: How about we just shoot and replace Senators until we have 60 votes?QUOTE]

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