quote:

Originally posted by SapperSteel:

quote:

Originally posted by joel9507:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by midwest guy:
Unfortunately we didn't repeal Obamacare now we co-own it. Midterms will be interesting.

Logic fail here.

Even if a doctor can't cure the infection, he is not to be confused with the person who infected you.

^^^^^Absolute truth, joel.

The fact is that the Democrats, and only the Democrats, OWN ObamaCare. If the GOPe effort that failed today had been successful, then the Republicans would own it.

But the RINOCare effort failed. So the Republicans do NOT own it.

ObamaCare is entirely owned by the Democrat Party and nobody else.

May it stay that way forever.

The ONLY SOLUTION to ObamaCare is to repeal it, eliminate it, make it nothing but a bad memory. Anything short of that is not acceptable.[/QUOTE

Unfortunately we are the Dr. And have the medicine to treat the infection , we failed to administer that medicine making us culpable in prolonging the infection. The dems will move for bipartisanship to tweak ACA in midterms! MG

quote:

Originally posted by SapperSteel:

quote:

Originally posted by joel9507:

quote:

Originally posted by midwest guy:
Unfortunately we didn't repeal Obamacare now we co-own it. Midterms will be interesting.

Logic fail here.

Even if a doctor can't cure the infection, he is not to be confused with the person who infected you.

^^^^^Absolute truth, joel.

The fact is that the Democrats, and only the Democrats, OWN ObamaCare. If the GOPe effort that failed today had been successful, then the Republicans would own it.

But the RINOCare effort failed. So the Republicans do NOT own it.

ObamaCare is entirely owned by the Democrat Party and nobody else.

May it stay that way forever.

The ONLY SOLUTION to ObamaCare is to repeal it, eliminate it, make it nothing but a bad memory. Anything short of that is not acceptable.

Edit to add:

Maybe...

But in the near to med term... It doesn't make a goddamn bit of difference who "owns" it... Only who is going to get the blame.

THe average voter is an idiot... because the average person is an uninformed idiot. For a variety of reasons, either they are a blind ideological martyr, a working person who doesn't have time to watch any actual news, an uneducated person who has no idea what to think except what a 30 second sound byte tells them too, or a young millennial who believes any bullshit they read on the internet...

The general population has become so desensitized, so turned off, so FOOLISH in the realm of politics that it won't matter who is ACTUALLY responsible, but a battle of "spin" as to who catches the blame.

If you want to know why we are where we are - not just with healthcare but the entire state of the government - just compare the efforts of the Dems to pass Obamacare to the GOP efforts to repeal it.

Dems fought like hell from Obama's election for over a year to write the bill and pass it. Obama and other Democrats gave hundreds of speeches around the country, held town halls, news conferences and then used every parliamentary trick in the book to get the bill to the presidents desk. They remained committed in the face of loud and substantial opposition. They lost seats in the midterm directly attributable to the healthcare debate. But they kept on going to fulfill Obama's promise (and the long-held Dem goal) of universal healthcare. They had internal disagreements, like the significant faction that wanted single payer, but they all rallied around a bill that got them pretty close to what they wanted.

The Dems are like that - they fight like hell to reach their goals. When they can't get them all at once, they chip away incessantly, making small gains and resisting large setbacks. That's why we have a 4+ trillion dollar budget for a federal government that taxes, regulates and otherwise intrudes on nearly every aspect of our lives.

You almost have to admire the way they play the political game.

The GOP on the other hand, has 7 years to plan a repeal but instead, they just passed unrealistic repeal bills knowing that they will be vetoed.

When they finally have both houses of Congress and the White House, they realize that whatever they pass will actually become law, so they back away from the promises of full repeal. They write a bill that ignores the major shortcomings of the ACA and makes very little progress toward the restoration of a free market to which the GOP is supposedly committed. They give it a couple months, decide the issue is just too politically difficult and give up. "Obamacare is the law of the land for the foreseeable future." Would you have voted for that campaign slogan?

Maybe they will revisit the issue soon - who knows - but does anyone believe that the GOP is committed ideologically to the ideals of economics and liberty that Obamacare crushes? You can only fight for something, like the Dems fought to pass Obamacare, when you are committed with all your heart to the ideas behind it.

Right now we have a GOP that is not committed to anything.

I have the same issues with Ryan as I did with the "Weeper of the House" that he replaced. Both would try to make a 'deal'. They never hesitated to make a BAD deal, so long as it was a 'deal'. With either of them a deal would be:

Dhims: We want to kill you.
Reps: No.
Dhims: Well, how about we just cut off both your legs?
Reps: Sounds like a deal.

Personally, I'd rather have no deal than a bad one. And RyanCare was a BAD one. It left so much of ZippyCAIR in place that next times the Dhims gained power (and it will happen eventually) they'd just have to add one or two things back to it and we'd be right back here.

And some say "Let it collapse". But how many will be financially crushed when it does eventually collapse? Both pieces of legislation were examples of bad governance. It's one monstrosity we should have been rid of by now.

quote:

but does anyone believe that the GOP is committed ideologically to the ideals of economics and liberty that Obamacare crushes? You can only fight for something, like the Dems fought to pass Obamacare, when you are committed with all your heart to the ideas behind it.

Right. Exactly.
It was demonstrated that only about 30+ Congressmen are truly committed to liberty.
The rest have been exposed for their "political theater" in their prior votes to fully repeal the monstrosity of Obamacare. They don't want to actually repeal it... they just want to tinker with it a bit. They don't actually believe that it's no business of the government to dictate the terms of a persons most intimate private health decisions.
The most fundamental problem with the ACA, Obamacare, is that it changed the relationship between the citizen and the government.

This is a big disappointment.

so no repeal effort? Are they actually going to leave the ACA in place?

I'm disappointed to hear Trump say he will just leave it and move on.

Neither he nor the political class are the ones suffering under ACA. It's us. Who put him there. Just seems that he is abandoning the "people".

But I am going to wait and see. Maybe he is playing chess and I am thinking checkers.

The RINOs never were serious about repealing it. Out of Ryan's mouth, he even admitted it, although not verbatim. He said, the last 8 years, since they had no real power, all they had to do was being the opposition party, saying no to everything, sending up pretend repeal bill after pretend repeal bill, knowing full well they had no chance of going anywhere. Now, they have all the power, and their true face is showing. Fucking assholes.

Here is how I look at this. Obamacare's defining principle is the individual mandate, period. It is the definition of tyranny. It is against everything this country stands for, freedom. Repeal, replace, redo, or whatever bullshit you want to call it with all the dog and pony tweakings, if the individual mandate is not completely terminated with extreme prejudice, then it is still Obamacare, as far as I'm concerned. I don't give a fuck how "affordable" you pretend to make health care is to everyone, if the individual mandate stays in one form or another, then you have failed. Freedom loving folks should never be forced to buy anything they don't use.

President Trump's executive order that directs federal agencies to ease the “regulatory burdens” of ObamaCare may be the talking point the Democrats use to shift ownership to Trump. It orders agencies to “waive, defer, grant exemptions from, or delay the implementation of any provision or requirement” of ObamaCare that imposes a “fiscal burden on any State or a cost, fee, tax, penalty, or regulatory burden on individuals, families, healthcare providers, health insurers, patients, recipients of healthcare services, purchasers of health insurance, or makers of medical devices, products, or medications.”

Considering the above, Trump probably does own it now.

quote:

President Trump's executive order that directs federal agencies to ease the “regulatory burdens” of ObamaCare may be the talking point the Democrats use to shift ownership to Trump.

They can say what they want... but it's just a "talking point". As long as it's popularly known as Obamacare, the Dems own it. Of course, they think owning your healthcare is a good thing because they think the State owns everything. Yesterday's failure doesn't really hurt Trump or mean that he "owns" it. He can move on to a less burdensome tax plan. Congress will have to revisit this at some point but tax policy will now come first.

On Friday, legal scholar, author, and conservative radio/TV host Mark Levin ripped House Republicans over their failed attempt to replace the Affordable Care Act (ACA). Taking to Facebook, Levin published a short, but incredibly powerful message, aimed mostly at Speaker of the House Paul Ryan:

"Mr. Ryan, you continue with your mantra, that the GOP is now a governing party not an opposition party. These are words that apply to you. You failed to develop a plan that embraced market capitalism and you did not involve the GOP conservatives in the early phases of drafting your plan. You tried to force this plan through, adopted a few changes, but mostly continued with big-government ideas and much of Obamacare's essential elements. The failure to govern is on the GOP leadership. And the failure to uphold the repeal promise with an actual repeal of most of Obamacare is also on the GOP leadership. These troubling circumstances could have been avoided."

In short form, Levin said what every conservative has been saying since the American Health Care Act (AHCA) was revealed. This legislation is not conservative; it is not free-market oriented; it is not patient-centric. The AHCA is Obamacare Lite, and the antithesis of what should have been put forward.

Levin rightly blames Rep. Paul Ryan, and those who designed the bill.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/...epublican-frank-camp

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
The Dems are like that - they fight like hell to reach their goals. When they can't get them all at once, they chip away incessantly, making small gains and resisting large setbacks. That's why we have a 4+ trillion dollar budget for a federal government that taxes, regulates and otherwise intrudes on nearly every aspect of our lives.

What you say is true, but I think your conclusion misses an important point. The dems wanted fully government controlled, single payer healthcare ala the UK National Health Service.

They knew that had no chance of passing, but rather than throw in the towel they took what was politically possible that moved the ball in that direction.

The bill that was just pulled did not fully repeal all of Obamacare and move to a fully market based system, but it did move the ball in that direction, and if the republicans had stuck together it could have been passed.

Would it be the final word and what everyone wanted? Of course not, but it would have helped a LOT of people and moved the ball. But, the republicans split into camps and got NOTHING. I hope the people who say that the voters will blame the democrats are correct, I think that's a silly pipe dream. The voters put the republicans in there to start fixing things and if they don't they will be held accountable.

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
The Dems are like that - they fight like hell to reach their goals. When they can't get them all at once, they chip away incessantly, making small gains and resisting large setbacks. That's why we have a 4+ trillion dollar budget for a federal government that taxes, regulates and otherwise intrudes on nearly every aspect of our lives.

What you say is true, but I think your conclusion misses an important point. The dems wanted fully government controlled, single payer healthcare ala the UK National Health Service.

They knew that had no chance of passing, but rather than throw in the towel they took what was politically possible that moved the ball in that direction.

The bill that was just pulled did not fully repeal all of Obamacare and move to a fully market based system, but it did move the ball in that direction, and if the republicans had stuck together it could have been passed.

Would it be the final word and what everyone wanted? Of course not, but it would have helped a LOT of people and moved the ball. But, the republicans split into camps and got NOTHING. I hope the people who say that the voters will blame the democrats are correct, I think that's a silly pipe dream. The voters put the republicans in there to start fixing things and if they don't they will be held accountable.

I think YOU slightly missed the point. The Dems were ideologically committed to an end goal. They pursued it vigorously and got what was politically feasible.

The GOP is not ideologically committed to an end goal. That is why they couldn't coalesce around a bill to advance towards that goal.

Much of the GOP is not interested in getting the government out of health care. They are willing to trim Obamacare around the edges but are not ideologically committed to overturning its basic premise that healthcare is a human right that must be provided for by the federal government. The Dems are committed to liberal principles, and to the extent the GOP is committed to anything, it is to only slightly less liberal principles.

Its not a matter of passing the ACHA to move the ball down the field. The problem is that the GOP can't decide which end zone they need to reach to score the touchdown.

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

Would it be the final word and what everyone wanted? Of course not, but it would have helped a LOT of people and moved the ball.

It WOULD be the final word. When people griped about it, they could say "Hey, we replaced it." But about all they did was eliminate the individual mandate. This bill was cooked up by Ryan with ZERO input from the conservatives within the party. Heck, I heard several interviews with representatives within the party that said they had no idea what was in it until Ryan had it scored by the CBO. The CBO had it before ANY members of the conservative side even had a chance to get an idea what was in it. Ryan failed to even make a weak attempt to build consensus on what should have been in the bill. And it was a bad bill. Had this bill passed, they would never have taken any action to fix the mess. So it WOULD have been the final word. Until the next time the Dhims got power. Then they'd just use all those "the Secretary shall" statements to re-birth it.

Taking to Twitter this morning:
Donald J. Trump
✔
@realDonaldTrump

ObamaCare will explode and we will all get together and piece together a great healthcare plan for THE PEOPLE.
Do not worry!

9:37 AM - 25 Mar 2017

Posting this editorial from Star Tribune because it has always been one of the most pro-liberal/Obama papers out there. Recently I have seen a change in its stance on guns/race relations and crime.

Now an editorial criticizing the Obama version and saying something remotely positive about Trump?

LOL - the only thing that makes sense to me is that the paper was recently purchased by Timberwolves owner, Glenn Taylor. Maybe he is pushing a more balanced agenda...

Definitely worth a read!


The Republican bill did not merit passage, but the challenge remains.
http://www.startribune.com/opi...rials/417051194.html

<sorry I cannot cut/paste, their site blocks that on mobile devises>

quote:

Originally posted by Ronin1069:
Posting this editorial from Star Tribune because it has always been one of the most pro-liberal/Obama papers out there. Recently I have seen a change in its stance on guns/race relations and crime.

Now an editorial criticizing the Obama version and saying something remotely positive about Trump?

LOL - the only thing that makes sense to me is that the paper was recently purchased by Timberwolves owner, Glenn Taylor. Maybe he is pushing a more balanced agenda...

Definitely worth a read!

Health care setback shouldn't be an excuse to walk away from reform
The Republican bill did not merit passage, but the challenge remains.
http://www.startribune.com/opi...rials/417051194.html


Congressional Republicans’ first serious attempt to repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act suffered a crushing defeat Friday with the last-minute cancellation of a House vote on the GOP proposal. While this is a serious setback for President Trump’s agenda, the young administration and its congressional allies should not back away from the critical work of reforming the nation’s costly, complex health care system.

The plot twists and emotional debate over the American Health Care Act (AHCA), the name given to the GOP’s health overhaul, provided enough drama over the past few weeks to rival a reality TV show. Deal sweeteners, such as ill-advisedly weakening “essential benefit” requirements for insurance plans to appease hard-line conservatives, appeared to backfire as moderate Republicans pulled their support.

The deeply flawed AHCA did not merit passage, and it was disappointing to see that Minnesota Republican Reps. Erik Paulsen and Jason Lewis strongly backed the bill. The AHCA would have increased the number of uninsured Americans by 24 million by 2026, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Older people, such as young retirees, would have faced steeper costs. The call to reduce federal Medicaid funding would have jeopardized seniors’ nursing home coverage.


Democrats shouldn’t celebrate the setback. Obamacare has flaws, too, as soaring premiums in Minnesota’s individual insurance market painfully attest. The takeaway from Friday is not that the status quo is fine. Instead, it’s that health care reform is so complex that one party can’t do it alone. Bipartisanship is essential.

Trump likely has little appetite for tackling health care again soon. But the nation’s dealmaker-in-chief should understand the power of time and persistence. Expanding the ranks of allies also helps, which is why he should reach out to Democrats and medical industry groups to find reforms that better balance cost and coverage. Democrats should have a list of serious proposals ready to go.

Health care needn’t be a permanent setback for Trump. The issue is frustratingly complex, but there will be a place in history for a leader who didn’t back down and instead forged ahead to find teamwork and solutions. Trump could, and should, rise to the challenge.


<sorry I cannot cut/paste, their site blocks that on mobile devises>

Bret Baier, last night:



After Republican leaders failed to get enough votes in the house to get the GOP ObamaCare replacement passed, Bret Baier says that former President Obama is the day's "biggest winner."

"It is now clear that Republicans cannot do - at least yet - what they planned on doing in campaign after campaign," Baier said. "Barack Obama has the win right now."

He explained that's because the "general structure" of ObamaCare will remain in place for some time now.

Republicans will be attempting to "fix" the health care law, as opposed to repealing it, Baier said.

"Now the structure of ObamaCare is going to be in place."

And predictably all you see today in the liberal newspapers and networks is this meme:

-Trump is a disaster
-The Republicans cannot govern now
-The GOP is in disarray
-See? The people WANT Obamacare!

Steve Bannon's tactic may not have played well:

When the balky hardliners of the House Freedom Caucus visited the White House earlier this week, this was Steve Bannon's opening line, according to people in the conference room in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building:

" Guys, look. This is not a discussion. This is not a debate. You have no choice but to vote for this bill."

Bannon's point was: This is the Republican platform. You're the conservative wing of the Republican Party. But people in the room were put off by the dictatorial mindset.

One of the members replied: "You know, the last time someone ordered me to something, I was 18 years old. And it was my daddy. And I didn't listen to him, either."

https://www.axios.com/inside-t...down-2329417172.html

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:
Steve Bannon's opening line, according to people in the conference room in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building:

" Guys, look. This is not a discussion. This is not a debate. You have no choice but to vote for this bill."

Gee.....how'd that work?

He's new to politics, so give him a Mulligan. One hopes he doesn't try that particular 'persuasion' tactic again.