quote:

Originally posted by Jumper:

quote:

Originally posted by Carpentermaass84:
What exactly are we debating here? DHS already said the guy attempted to pull a firearm and kill the officers so there's nothing left to discuss. If you do not believe the very people Trump hand-picked to serve us then I have to question what side you are on.

If you want blind obedience to a single person go join a cult. And if you say things like "I have to question what side you are on" then you are definitely not the kind of person whose side I ever want to be on.

Anyone who has the intention to commit a massacre against LE wearing body armor isn't going to walk around with a single pistol and a couple of magazines. That's what rifles are for.

DHS is just spewing pure BS at this point and I don't believe a word any of them say. The most alarming thing I've heard from my father lately is "Well, the news said..." I don't give a shit what someone says unless that person repeatedly demonstrates a capacity for self-reflection and can admit they might be wrong and even then I still verify. No mainstream news outlet deserves that kind of trust these days.

I remember the night of the Rittenhouse shooting when multiple video angles were almost immediately available and then being absolutely stunned over the next couple of years reading Reddit threads where people either chose not to watch those videos, watched them and chose not to believe their eyes, or parroted what they heard on biased news without doing even a tiny bit of research.

Don't let anyone tell you what to think.

Can you comment on what you have seen in the various videos? I cannot see where the first shot came from. I can see where the P320 AXG Combat was taken away by the guy in the gray jacket. But after the first shot, the rest of the agents opened up.

If the P320 had an ND and spooked the others into shooting then it's understandable. If the guy has a backup gun he was reaching for, then the shooting may have been justified.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
How do we ban/stop/silence the destructive ideologies that will destroy us? Arguing against them hasn't worked.

*Snip*

In order to save our constitution, country, and way of life, we will have to be ILLIBERAL and clean house somehow. I don't have the answer as to when or how, but I think I will see it in my lifetime.

So you want to save the Constitution by disregarding it?

quote:

Originally posted by Oregon:

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
How do we ban/stop/silence the destructive ideologies that will destroy us? Arguing against them hasn't worked.

*Snip*

In order to save our constitution, country, and way of life, we will have to be ILLIBERAL and clean house somehow. I don't have the answer as to when or how, but I think I will see it in my lifetime.

So you want to save the Constitution by disregarding it?

Shall we allow marxism by popular vote and subsequent constitutional amendments or a convention to "fundamentally transform" the country like Obama wanted? Are you OK with losing your second amendment rights as long as they get enough people to go along with it, like they did with alcohol in prohibition?

Once European countries allow Muslims to become a majority, they will vote for Sharia law and the stripping of rights from non-Islamics. It has happened in every country that has become majority muslim. Should they allow this as long as the majority votes for it? We are a long way from any significant numbers of muslims except in SE Michigan. But they already are showing their intent in Dearborn.

This is heavy philosophically. Should we turn our backs on our founding principles and inalienable rights if enough people vote for it?

It is an uncomfortable conversation for sure. We all revere the principles of the Constitution, to include free speech and religious freedom. Yet they are used against us by people intent on destroying our Constitutional republic!

The wheels of change turn slowly most of the time, but generally the processes find a correct answer. Not always, and sometimes it is terribly wrong. But then it tends to be corrected eventually.

I think, though, that what we see with rogue judges and prosecutors, not to mention corrupt politicians on both sides of the aisle, means things will have to get much worse before the masses wake up. I continue to believe the media is the worst enemy of liberty.

Minneapolis is going to be an inflection point, much as Saint George Floyd, 9/11/2002, and Covid all were. It is a tough call when to bring on the Insurrection Act. I tend to think sooner is better, before more useful idiots are recruited.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
This is heavy philosophically. Should we turn our backs on our founding principles and inalienable rights if enough people vote for it?

So again, you're advocating for disregarding the enumerated rights contained in the Constitution (for people you disagree with) to preserve it.

quote:

Originally posted by Oregon:

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
This is heavy philosophically. Should we turn our backs on our founding principles and inalienable rights if enough people vote for it?

So again, you're advocating for disregarding the enumerated rights contained in the Constitution (for people you disagree with) to preserve it.

Why don't you answer the question I asked? Will you give up your inalienable rights if enough people vote to take them from you? Yes or no?

You be the judge.

https://x.com/realchasegeiser/...226210968584320?s=20

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:

quote:

Originally posted by Oregon:

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
This is heavy philosophically. Should we turn our backs on our founding principles and inalienable rights if enough people vote for it?

So again, you're advocating for disregarding the enumerated rights contained in the Constitution (for people you disagree with) to preserve it.

Why don't you answer the question I asked? Will you give up your inalienable rights if enough people vote to take them from you? Yes or no?

Nope. Not looking to take anymore else's either.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Oregon,

Time to shit or get off the pot as they say. Either invoke the insurrection act and get this under control or pull ICE, CBP and whoever else the hell out of there. These guys are being fed to the mob at this point. Worrying about the optics of armed military troops on the street has passed. It's already ugly and only going to get uglier after today.

“The shitty gun goes off”

Would that “shitty gun” be a 320?

If so here we go again with the 320 issues.

It was a P320 AXG Combat with a Romeo 2 optic. There is a photo of it.

In this case the officer may have negligently pulled the trigger due to stress and wearing gloves.

quote:

Originally posted by Mustang-PaPa:
Thanks.

Guess i was thinking walz calling them up from the Minnesota national guard with his directive and Trump calling up the Alaska national guard with his directive would play the two against each other. But my thinking is wrong since they are all National Guards being federalized as one unit.

Except the president is not calling up National Guard units from Alaska. 2 units of the 11th Airborne Division at Ft. Richardson here in Alaska have been put on alert for possible deployment to Minnesota. That is an active Army unit, not National Guard.

We’ve got a few local and state politicians demanding an, “Explanation” from the president on why units based in Alaska may be deployed to Minnesota. It’s grandstanding at best. It’s an active Army unit, they’re under command of the president, not the governor and thankfully not the state legislature.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
It was a P320 AXG Combat with a Romeo 2 optic. There is a photo of it.

In this case the officer may have negligently pulled the trigger due to stress and wearing gloves.

Either way that's not going to bode well for the 320.

If the perp put a light target-only trigger in the pistol that might explain it.

But you are right, more P320 fodder to add to the pile.

quote:

Originally posted by Jumper:

Anyone who has the intention to commit a massacre against LE wearing body armor isn't going to walk around with a single pistol and a couple of magazines. That's what rifles are for.

Anyone who knows what they are doing maybe. But let’s not act like all these leftist protesters who weren’t in the streets 4 years ago or 12 or 16 years ago, know what they are doing. They don’t even know what they are mad about. Many are anti-gun leftists who learned everything they know about guns from movies and TV shows.

Now I don’t know anything about this one person but I’ve seen enough leftist gun violence to know that many of them have no idea what they are doing with guns and carry shitty cheap guns with shitty airsoft optics to think that a guy “undergunned” doesn’t have ill intentions.

TLDR: even stupid people can be dangerous.

It's really hard to say, but to me it looks like the agent who grabbed the gun had his hand wrapped around the grip, including his trigger finger.

I won't swear to it, but looks like the gun went off on its own. I don't buy into the faulty 320 design bit, but maybe an after-market or modified trigger?

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:

Anyone who knows what they are doing maybe. But let’s not act like all these leftist protesters who weren’t in the streets 4 years ago or 12 or 16 years ago, know what they are doing. They don’t even know what they are mad about. Many are anti-gun leftists who learned everything they know about guns from movies and TV shows.

Now I don’t know anything about this one person but I’ve seen enough leftist gun violence to know that many of them have no idea what they are doing with guns and carry shitty cheap guns with shitty airsoft optics to think that a guy “undergunned” doesn’t have ill intentions.

TLDR: even stupid people can be dangerous.

Expensive pistol, red dot sight, spare mags, putting himself in the middle of a bunch of armed and armored LEOs without his weapon drawn and choosing to piss them off... I'm not convinced that you really believe what you just wrote.

Lefty Sig, I had a long reply written up regarding what I saw in the video but fat fingered and lost most of it, so here's a brief retyping:

In the video I saw what appeared to be one agent taking away the man's P320 w/RDS right before another drew his sidearm. I then heard the first gunshot but I couldn't say for sure based on 480p video whether he was the one who fired. I had a hard time telling if the followup shots were his or other agents'. I'd like 1080p+ video to answer whether the victim's hands were empty, if he was face down or face up, which LEOs shot, why they shot, and whether the same officer fired all shots or if others also fired.

Considering just a few of the following quotes/signatures of other members of this forum I'll add below I'm surprised to see so much benefit of the doubt given to officers. I know the membership of this board likely has more LE/military than the average and tribalism is hard to shake but one of the reasons I joined this forum so long ago was because I saw maturity and honesty I respected and wanted to live up to.


CPD SIG: “What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy

chellim1: "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."-rduckwor

Sig2340: "It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government." -Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018

And I could have sworn I saw another one recently to the effect of "How do you know a politician is lying? His lips are moving."

LEOs, military, firefighters, they all deserve respect but they're not some other, higher class of human being any more than high ranking clergy, politicians, or billionaires. They're just as fallible as the rest of us and it troubles me to see anyone put them up on a pedestal given their duty to the public. There are a fair number of Christians on this board and I would think they would know that better than anyone given their belief in only one single perfect person. I'm a wicked atheist, though, so apologies if that's presumptuous.

For me, the benefit of the doubt must always go first to citizens, not to agents of the state who are in their positions voluntarily and without coercion. Offending LE is not grounds for arrest, assault, or homicide. Interfering is grounds for arrest but not for homicide. At the same time LE must not be railroaded or thrown under the bus to serve some public narrative or to find a scapegoat. Society can't survive without laws and enforcement unless we all want constant tribal warfare or worse, but it's our duty to find a good balance if we can.

If one of the agents had an ND he should probably find another profession.

If the other agents opened fire because they were spooked they should probably find another profession.

If 4+ men can't adequately hold down a man of what looks like medium build to the point that one of them chose to shoot they should probably find another profession.


If higher quality video comes out showing a genuine threat to any of the officers such as a knife or another firearm I'll be happy to revise my thoughts. Intellectual honesty and moral courage, to me, are the true defining characteristics of a man. I also believe the Constitution is the only thing of the government we should consider sacred, not a flag, a president, a group, or a profession.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by Ghost1RLTW:
Somehow you geniuses missed that.

You have not earned the privilege of speaking to the members of this forum in such a way. You will conduct yourself in a polite fashion or you will be considered a troll and promptly removed from this forum. All you need to do is treat others here as you expect to be treated, and everything will be fine.

THANK YOU!
The “Ghost” has been showing his ass.

quote:

Originally posted by Jumper:
Considering just a few of the following quotes/signatures of other members of this forum I'll add below I'm surprised to see so much benefit of the doubt given to officers. I know the membership of this board likely has more LE/military than the average and tribalism is hard to shake but one of the reasons I joined this forum so long ago was because I saw maturity and honesty I respected and wanted to live up to.

Exactly why would you be 'surprised to see so much benefit of the doubt' given to the good guys here? You don't even know what you don't know at this point! Right now there's NOTHING but 480P video and pure armchair quarterback speculation!

Jumper,

I am looking at the videos and trying to figure out what happened, and not passing judgment until we have facts.

Shit happens when you are trying to subdue and disarm an armed suspect that is resisting.

Every one of us that carries a gun knows that you absolutely do not start or escalate shit with anyone when you are armed. You swallow your ego and defuse or walk away from instigators unless they are an immediate threat of death or grievous bodily harm. Every one of us knows anything else can and will negate any self defense claim we have if we were a part of the problem and did not defuse or walk away.

This asshole was actively agitating and impeding law enforcement doing their lawful duty, and then resisted arrest while armed. It is no surprise that he ended up dead.

All of us know this is a godawful stupid things to do, and none of use would ever put ourselves in that kind of situation. All these assholes playing Don Quixote trying to stop an entire federal agency from performing its sworn duty. I will never understand the mindset, but I know that they are probably on the fringe of mental stability and they are being egged on by idiot politicians calling ICE the gestapo and implying that they are abducting and killing people with impunity.

This does not absolve the agents of negligence or manslaughter/murder charges if they were in the wrong. If the agent who first unholstered his pistol made the first shot without justification, he has to face consequences. If the perps gun ND'ed while being taken away and the others did not know it had been removed and reasonably believed the perp was shooting, it's not so clear. If the perp had a second backup gun then the agents might be 100% justified.

Stop trying to pass judgement until we know what really happened.