AKSuperDually and Wishfull Thinker

My point is were you given a choice?

I give all these people the benefit of the doubt that when they took their oath they fully meant that they would lay down their lives if that is what it came to. They forfeited their choice in that moment. It was cruel to make them think that they had that choice back.

If this hadn't been an exercise and they hadn't been given the choice to back out I suspect that most of the ones that stood up would have went to the front line and fulfilled their duty just like the ones that didn't stand. Like AKSuperDually said, "people who couldn't deal with their fear were the exception, not the rule."

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Originally posted by AKSuperDually:

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Of course if you give people a choice about being in battle, possibly being killed, they will back out.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Your own feelings I can only guess.

Don't make that assumption about everyone. The overwhelming majority of the people I served with went and did difficult things expecting with a decent chance that they wouldn't return. Keep in mind that post 9/11 a LOT of young people signed up for service. I joined pre-Kosovo, and I didn't really understand the cold war at the time. I thought I was joining during peace time, I did however reenlist post 9/11 have already served in and near combat multiple times. I found that people who couldn't deal with their fear were the exception, not the rule.

I went through U.S. Army Basic Combat Training '82 (Army Guard) and USAF Basic Training '83 (Active USAF).
Air Force training was expedited so maybe I missed it, but during Army basic they did a somewhat similar scenario. We were going to war, I forget why, but it followed with news of the time. It was not an issue everybody was willing to defend our Country. Really a none issue basic training went on.

I was a RDC at Great Lakes Boot camp for 4 years from 1998 -2002. I was there when the Cole was hit where one of the recruits from the first division I trained was killed. I was there during 9/11.

This exercise itself can be a very useful tool but the execution as described in the article, if factual, is fucked up 7 different ways to Sunday.

In my opinion anyone who stood up should be discharged. After all, they are supposed to be Marines.

I'm sure everyone noticed that both recruits mentioned in this hit piece were released for psychological reasons. Even if this "hazing" had not taken place I would wager neither of these recruits would have gone very far into their careers without some other event taking place.

It appears to me this exercise saved tax dollars as well as hours of grief to their future leadership, military service is as much mental toughness as it is physical.

First off, they are not Marines. They are boots, "worthless pieces of amphibian shit". You are not a Marine, or my brother, until you graduate boot camp and prove you have what it takes to be in my Corps. Stories like this piss me off. Fuckin' pussies.

I have no problem with the exercise, but if they do this, it should be a formal thing, sanctioned by the chain of command, with explicit consequences. I would have no problem dropping them from training and kicking them out immediately.

But as a unsanctioned, informal part of training, just basically to screw with them, I do have a problem with it. Either they have to be kept in as damaged goods, or they'll end up getting dropped or screwing up there way out (which appears to have happened.)

This is something the training commands really need to think if they want done, and if so how.

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“It is improperly done when the drill instructors look at the kids (who elect not to fight) and then label them as cowards,” she said. “So the bad drill instructors will take those kids, … and they’ll label them, and they’ll make those kids’ lives really miserable.”

Hazing? You're in fucking boot camp Nancy. You should be expecting to be singled out and badgered with extra PT and if you don't, consider yourself one of the lucky ones.

She was due to kennel her therapy dog and go home. Thank you for weeding out the free loaders.

We had a kid try to claim consciousness objector status once right before a deployment. He said when he joined he never though he would would be asked to kill someone. I asked him what he thought that two weeks of shooting at human silhouette's in boot camp was for.

Not sure what happened to him but he didn't go.

I guess I'm an asshole. I don't see a problem with using this as a training tool.

However, I think they need to re-think how to handle those who take the less desired option. Should they be given remedial PT? No. But they need to do something non-punitive.

My time in the Air Force was 1998-2007. It went from chill to wild late summer 2001 for some stuff.

I only knew of 3 people to take actions to not go. 1 injured himself, one injured his working dog (dog goes home you go home), one went to college specifically to avoid deploying. This was over nearly 8 years.

Our basic had no trick like that. In Security school while learning the M249 the instructors made us believe people were coming to steal the automatic weapons and they wanted volunteers to man them so other students could escape(this was with no tactical training to speak of) only 3 people didn't step up.

They did it to me when I was at Parris Island, only it was real. 2Aug1964, Gulf of Tonkin. We were not offered a choice.

First time I've heard of this. It didn't happen when I was at PI in 98. It's been a few years, but I can't imagine anyone from my boot camp platoon standing up. The DIs had made us so ridiculously moto that I'm pretty sure we thought we were bulletproof for at least the next 6 months. The only answer I'd expect to hear would be "get some!".

Marine corps boot camp is one big mind game. The fleet is pretty much nothing but getting messed with or messing with someone. These recruits wouldn't have made it far anyway.

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Originally posted by Sig Marine:
First off, they are not Marines. They are boots, "worthless pieces of amphibian shit". You are not a Marine, or my brother, until you graduate boot camp and prove you have what it takes to be in my Corps. Stories like this piss me off. Fuckin' pussies.

I agree.
Cowards like this need to be shown the back door. Launched back to Civilian World.

**IF** (And that's a real big IF) they are allowed to graduate from MCRD, they'll NEVER be my Family. A fucking disgrace to anyone who's ever earned our uniform.

Let's face it, not everyone is cut out for the military. Maybe some who aren't can be trained to cut it, but certainly not all. They should figure out how to cull these out as soon as possible. I don't see how keeping them in helps the military as a whole, the units they may get stuck with, or the unqualified recruit.

Standing off to the side of the Christmas Tree when the B52s were rolling out to the runway, I don't recall being offered a choice to opt out of the festivities.
Who joins the USMC and does not think they will be the first to fight?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: YooperSigs,

The military has been all volunteer since 1973. No one is forced to sign up.
Even if you don't want to be in a potential shooting war situation, but still want to serve in the military, there are options like the Coast Guard.
Why would you sign up for the USMC if there was any question in your mind? I don't get it.

I went through basic training in 1973. Vietnam was just winding down. We were told within a couple of weeks would not be shipped out. During the last field exercise before graduation the cadre came through and said we were on alert because of fighting in Israel. I could feel that everyone paid closer attention, both RA's and draftees. As it turned out it was the Yom Kippur war.
When you join the service, regardless of branch what would you expect? One should expect to serve.

i have no problem with the exercise. It didn't happen to me. But then again, I wasn't in marine bootcamp.

Marines are supposed to be combatants first and whatever their MOS is second.

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Originally posted by Skull Leader:
AKSuperDually and Wishfull Thinker

My point is were you given a choice?

I didn't answer your post just for me, tough guy and all that, but I will. If I understand your question, after I joined the Marines was I ever given a choice? You'll have to take my word for it but...In the last week of tank school we (all officers, mostly 2nd lt.) got our orders, very broad brush 1st Marine Div (Da Nang) 3rd Marine Division (Khe Sahn and points north) my orders were to 9th Marine Amphibious Brigade, no idea who these guys were, one of my class mates said 'Okinawa, the golden ticket). Too true, Oki, the HQ for all the support and combat support, except artillery for two regiments assigned to an on going amphibious task force. Short story even though it pains me to make it short, I did nothing, squat, diddly shit, I moved paper requests for supplies to a tank, an anti-tank and a truck company that were already completed except for an officers sig- mine. My first request for in-country transfer was a month later, the xo limited me to one request a month, and because there were other lieutenants in the same boat, I had to renew every month, other wise this was a permanent change of station and would be over-seas combat area and I wouldn't expect to get another overseas tour for three years. One of the reasons there was no room in the operating units was that I was the newb and other butter=bars were ahead of me with their request for in-country. It took me almost 4 months and I didn't get a tank platoon I got a platoon of anti-tank vehicles and I took it. There's me.

Several months later I was a platoon commander of a provisional platoon, made up of my guys, a bunch of truck drivers and some cooks and clerks because Viet Nam was a fucked up war, and we were in a pickle. For about two weeks we operated as infantry and figured it out as we went. I asked for volunteers for shit assignments, like listening posts, and scouts in an area and time when we were in daily contact. I never had an assignment that went without volunteers. There, they could stay in the relative safety of the rear, maybe 200 yards from the 'front' or they could put on their war face and get close so they did.

So I'll stick with my original comment about the PTA and the and the MCRD.

Spend $3 bucks on "No Place to Hide" the book written by the dad of one of our members here. It's on Amazon and it's a short read, but take a look at the shit storm those soldiers in a mech company got into when a smart feller with a star told them to dismount and attack an entrenched position. Soldier after solder stayed in the fight when all , yep all, of the officers were shot and evacuated and then the staff NCOs. Soldiers went into the storm without orders to retrieve wounded, and then they did the same thing to retrieve dead. I'm not saying they were not pissed off, I'm saying they had a choice to stay in a hole or a med tent with a minor injury and dozens of them went back into the shit.

This is long and I apologize to the OP if I strayed from his thread, but your assertion was not accurate based on my experience and the related experiences of classmates from those long days ago.