Not enough info beyond the body cams being off. That little tidbit has my suspicions way up. All of them off? Really?

After reading the preceding 5 pages of mental masturbation I may have to start smoking again.....

quote:

Originally posted by Dresden:
This smells to high heaven. It really is similar to the Philando Castile case. Shoot first, ask questions later.

Not that shit again. Really?

Beyond the initial cries here and elsewhere, the officer was cleared. See, waiting for all the facts and views and perspective to be laid out and disected allowed for a different - and reasoned - outcome than "Bad shoot, cop bad" mentality.

Is it asking for much to wait until you have some evidence or facts other than wild ass speculation?

quote:

Originally posted by c1steve:

quote:

The possibility that occurred to me was that the driver mistook the cell phone for something else (heck, maybe she even made a sudden move), hollered "Gun!", and the partner who already had his gun out went to town. Likely? No. Possible? Yes.

Okay, this is plausible. A complete CF, but possible.

If you'd partaken in LE training, you'd recognize this as being more than a "little" plausible

quote:

Originally posted by Flashlightboy:

quote:

Originally posted by Dresden:
This smells to high heaven. It really is similar to the Philando Castile case. Shoot first, ask questions later.

Not that shit again. Really?

Beyond the initial cries here and elsewhere, the officer was cleared. See, waiting for all the facts and views and perspective to be laid out and disected allowed for a different - and reasoned - outcome than "Bad shoot, cop bad" mentality.

Is it asking for much to wait until you have some evidence or facts other than wild ass speculation?

Jeronimo Yanez was cleared of any wrongdoing, but that does not make him innocent. He still may have punitive settlements to deal with.

He is being 'strongly encouraged' by everyone involved to seek employment outside of the Law Enforcement vocation.

As an actual judge once told me, the criminal justice system is there to enforce case law, not to mete out justice.

So, I guess yeah, this shit again.

H&K-Guy

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

quote:

Originally posted by Scoutmaster:
Originally posted by Sig209:...The delay is all about 'getting our spin on the story straight' IMO.

quote:

Seems to me if they had a fairly solid story, it would be out by now. At this point, maybe if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, it's probably a duck.

Who knows with the incompetence we see today. Look at Ferguson, it was a completely good shoot and the department refused to say anything for almost a week while wildly inaccurate stories were being put out by the media and riots were starting. There was ZERO reason for them not to issue a statement and it could have averted that whole fiasco.

[Rant On/] Wow. You got everything wrong on Ferguson. As someone who went through it with both friends on Ferguson and St. Louis County here is what happened: St. Louis County PD was investigating the shooting and part of their protocols, all information goes through them which means NO press releases from the original department. The wild information was out 15 seconds after the shooting and the rioting at the crime scene began about 5 minutes later. The media immediately exacerbated the situation by sticking a microphone in front of any thug they could find. St. Louis County was getting all the witnesses' statement locked down and protecting the ones who went against "Hands Up, Don't Shoot". Once the ballistics, crime scene results, and autopsy results were in, they gave information out but the media (especially the National Media) ignored large parts of it. The media choose to ignore it because it wasn't the narrative the media and BLM terrorists wanted to present. Then you had Holder and his progressive DOJ crew saying it was a bad shoot (not the local FBI agents who were over watching the investigation and immediately said it was a good shoot). Again the facts and investigation didn't fit the Obama/holder narrative, so it was ignored.

BLM had several practice runs to get it right. You could watch what happened at each shooting starting with Tavon Martin. BLM learned from their mistakes and got the information they wanted out there via their news reporters and social media. At the point when Ferguson Chief Jackson and St. Louis County Chief Belmar had the infamous Friday press conference, the narrative was already at wildfire status. Remember how the media greeted the release of the video of the strong arm robbery by Brown, going on why did the Police release it....blah blah blah......that video was part of the information specifically requested made by the media per the Missouri Sunshine Law. Remember how it jacked up the rioters again? I do because I was there.

Thanks to Trump, everyone can see how the Fake News operates now. [/Rant Off]

Back to the topic at hand.

quote:

Originally posted by jsbcody:
Wow. You got everything wrong on Ferguson. As someone who went through it with both friends on Ferguson and St. Louis County here is what happened: St. Louis County PD was investigating the shooting and part of their protocols, all information goes through them which means NO press releases from the original department. The wild information was out 15 seconds after the shooting and the rioting at the crime scene began about 5 minutes later. The media immediately exacerbated the situation by sticking a microphone in front of any thug they could find. St. Louis County was getting all the witnesses' statement locked down and protecting the ones who went against "Hands Up, Don't Shoot". Once the ballistics, crime scene results, and autopsy results were in, they gave information out but the media (especially the National Media) ignored large parts of it. The media choose to ignore it because it wasn't the narrative the media and BLM terrorists wanted to present. Then you had Holder and crew saying it was a bad shoot (not the local FBI agents who were over watching the investigation and immediately said it was a good shoot). Again the facts and investigation didn't fit the Obama/holder narrative, so it was ignored.

That's not getting it 'all wrong'. As I stated, the police did not issue a statement which made a bad situation worse. That's the number one takeaway from Ferguson and you see departments all over the country immediately releasing information when these incidents occur. There was just an incident today where a perp was claiming that an officer called him a racist name and the department immediately countered by releasing body cam footage that showed the perp was a liar. Departments all across the country stated that the lesson from Ferguson was to get out in front of these incidents with information.
https://www.policeone.com/chie...ate-with-the-public/

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:

quote:

Originally posted by Flashlightboy:

quote:

Originally posted by Dresden:
This smells to high heaven. It really is similar to the Philando Castile case. Shoot first, ask questions later.

Not that shit again. Really?

Beyond the initial cries here and elsewhere, the officer was cleared. See, waiting for all the facts and views and perspective to be laid out and disected allowed for a different - and reasoned - outcome than "Bad shoot, cop bad" mentality.

Is it asking for much to wait until you have some evidence or facts other than wild ass speculation?

Jeronimo Yanez was cleared of any wrongdoing, but that does not make him innocent. He still may have punitive settlements to deal with.

The criminal justice system is there to enforce case law, not to mete out justice.

So, I guess yeah, this shit again.

H&K-Guy

You scare the shit out of me when you say the officer was criminally cleared but he's not innocent. You running your own Star Chamber?

He was acquitted on state criminal charges and that's the end of it, unless the Justice Department brings their own charges aka Rodney King but that's unlikely. So justice, to you, means in the event of a criminal finding of "Not Guilty" he still faces additional criminal charges until justice is done or until you're happy?

What punitive settlements are you talking about? Can you explain the context where this might come up? The city already settled the civil case with the family so if the family wishes to proceed with a federal civil rights case against Yanez they can but I'm not sure of the factual basis where punitive damages will be awarded above and beyond the any underlying civil judgment.

Is it asking to much to just take a deep breath and let some probative evidence come forward instead of concluding within 48 hours that it was a bad shoot? If it is then the city and the officer will face the consequences but they deserve the benefit of the doubt until evidence, good or bad, is out there for all to see.

If you were the accused officer would you want people to hold off on their conclusions or would you be quite pleased if we all concluded that you're guilty, need justice done to you even if acquitted, need to pay punitive damages all based on little snippets of random factoids that don't amount to 100 words?

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

quote:

Originally posted by jsbcody:
Wow. You got everything wrong on Ferguson. As someone who went through it with both friends on Ferguson and St. Louis County here is what happened: St. Louis County PD was investigating the shooting and part of their protocols, all information goes through them which means NO press releases from the original department. The wild information was out 15 seconds after the shooting and the rioting at the crime scene began about 5 minutes later. The media immediately exacerbated the situation by sticking a microphone in front of any thug they could find. St. Louis County was getting all the witnesses' statement locked down and protecting the ones who went against "Hands Up, Don't Shoot". Once the ballistics, crime scene results, and autopsy results were in, they gave information out but the media (especially the National Media) ignored large parts of it. The media choose to ignore it because it wasn't the narrative the media and BLM terrorists wanted to present. Then you had Holder and crew saying it was a bad shoot (not the local FBI agents who were over watching the investigation and immediately said it was a good shoot). Again the facts and investigation didn't fit the Obama/holder narrative, so it was ignored.

That's not getting it 'all wrong'. As I stated, the police did not issue a statement which made a bad situation worse. That's the number one takeaway from Ferguson and you see departments all over the country immediately releasing information when these incidents occur. There was just an incident today where a perp was claiming that an officer called him a racist name and the department immediately countered by releasing body cam footage that showed the perp was a liar. Departments all across the country stated that the lesson from Ferguson was to get out in front of these incidents with information.
https://www.policeone.com/chie...ate-with-the-public/

Yep, lots of other departments followed the new media awareness model......how did it work out in Baltimore (riot), Baton Rouge (riot), Minnesota (2 different cases and 2 riots), Milwaukee (2 different cases and 2 riots), St. Louis City, and just down the road from Ferguson- Berkeley Missouri.

How do you do a press conference when the investigation has just started or is still going on? How do you put accurate information out there right away? So giving a press conference just based on the number of witnesses that said "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" vs the couple witnesses who actually saw the shooting. Crime scene processing, reconstruction, DNA/Blood testing, autopsies, and office interviews (local and state best practices is at around 24 hours or a sleep cycle between shooting and interview/walk through....for Feds it is 3 days) take time to do them right. So right away that information is not available. Yeah it is great if there is video and other immediate evidence.

In the St. Louis City OIS, they immediately put out Facebook photos of the dead suspect posing with the pistol he used to shoot at the officer. It was ignored and we had riots again. Local media ran it, national media ignored it.

The Berkeley OIS, St. Louis County immediately put out a good surveillance video of the suspect pulling and aiming his pistol at the officer. It was ignored and we had riots again. Local media ran it, national media ignored it.

At this point we have people not wanting to hear facts and evidence, they have their preconceived notion that the police are bad and they are going to present a narrative that reflects that.

quote:

Originally posted by Flashlightboy:

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:

quote:

Originally posted by Flashlightboy:

quote:

Originally posted by Dresden:
This smells to high heaven. It really is similar to the Philando Castile case. Shoot first, ask questions later.

Not that shit again. Really?

Beyond the initial cries here and elsewhere, the officer was cleared. See, waiting for all the facts and views and perspective to be laid out and disected allowed for a different - and reasoned - outcome than "Bad shoot, cop bad" mentality.

Is it asking for much to wait until you have some evidence or facts other than wild ass speculation?

Jeronimo Yanez was cleared of any wrongdoing, but that does not make him innocent. He still may have punitive settlements to deal with.

The criminal justice system is there to enforce case law, not to mete out justice.

So, I guess yeah, this shit again.

H&K-Guy

You scar the shit out of me when you say the officer was criminally cleared but he's not innocent. You running your own Star Chamber?

He was acquitted on state criminal charges and that's the end of it, unless the Justice Department brings their own charges aka Rodney King but that's unlikely. So justice, to you, means in the event of a criminal finding of "Not Guilty" he still faces additional criminal charges until justice is done or until you're happy?

What punitive settlements are you talking about? Can you explain the context where this might come up? The city already settled the civil case with the family so if the family wishes to proceed with a federal civil rights case against Yanez they can but I'm not sure of the factual basis where punitive damages will be awarded above and beyond the any underlying civil judgment.

Is it asking to much to just take a deep breath and let some probative evidence come forward instead of concluding within 48 hours that it was a bad shoot? If it is then the city and the officer will face the consequences but they deserve the benefit of the doubt until evidence, good or bad, is out there for all to see.

If you were the accused officer would you want people to hold off on their conclusions or would you be quite pleased if we all concluded that you're guilty, need justice done to you even if acquitted, need to pay punitive damages all based on little snippets of random factoids that don't amount to 100 words?

FLB,

First, I didn't say or imply that Yanez was or was not guilty, merely that he was found by the court to be, as you say "cleared of any wrongdoing". There is still a civil case that may come along, that will show him negligent, or participatory in the families loss. Another possibility is that the man is simply guilty of killing P.C. It's rare, but it happens.

Second, then he faced accusation by the court of case law, but this does not mean a person is innocent. Oh it should, but from my judges' own words above, it does not.

Third, we've all set our Phasers back to the stun setting, and are eagerly awaiting the initial report with its findings. We then will wait a little longer and see what the BCA comes up with. Vary few of us are past the MMQB crowd and into solid judgement mode.

Fourth, especially in the age of the internet, wild ass speculation is going to abound, no matter what or how you or I would prefer to be treated.

I truly wish I lived in your world, where clearing a man of a crime according to case law irrevocably makes him innocent.

I truly wish I lived in your world, where Judges actually pass judgment for the crimes they try.

I truly wish I lived in your world, where the universe gives all the benefit of the doubt, and nobody has the power to frame by decree.

But I don't live in your world. I live in my world, which I like to call 'Reality'.

H&K-Guy

I did not see this posted before. Start at 1:07. Civil rights activist goes through shoot don't shoot scenario. Food for thought.

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
Not enough info beyond the body cams being off. That little tidbit has my suspicions way up. All of them off? Really?

That is probably the least suspicious part of the story. Not trying to dig at you, but many agencies have left their policies on when to turn on or off BWC purposefully vague so they can save money on data storage, but point fingers when something isn't recorded.

Mine was just like that until recently. This is one of my two complaints on BWCs. My other complaint is that even when the goddam things are on and working, they still rarely capture enough to paint a clear picture.

Chongo,

Yes. Hindsight is 20/20, and it would have been nice to have some of the footage from the car's camera, and the body cams.

But the truth is we are going to have to go with the evidence we've got. And the body cams being on is not enforced as some would like it. That's what we have going on, so I say to others, just deal with it. Let's proceed with what we have. Enough speculation on why the cams were down, already.

H&K-Guy

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

quote:

Originally posted by Scoutmaster:
Originally posted by Sig209:...The delay is all about 'getting our spin on the story straight' IMO.

quote:

Seems to me if they had a fairly solid story, it would be out by now. At this point, maybe if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, it's probably a duck.

Who knows with the incompetence we see today. Look at Ferguson, it was a completely good shoot and the department refused to say anything for almost a week while wildly inaccurate stories were being put out by the media and riots were starting. There was ZERO reason for them not to issue a statement and it could have averted that whole fiasco.

I might suggest there are some key differences between the "backgrounds" of the two now dead people in the Ferguson and Minneapolis matters, and some key differences in the circumstances.

I guess most here don't get why the PD, or whoever the investigative body is, can't get out in front of the press by making "A" statement.

It doesn't even have to include new information, just step up to the mics and regurgitate, just like the press does. It's how the game is played today, 24/7 news cycle.

"Hi, I'm capt blah blah, Public Relations Officer for blah blah, as I've explained before in our previous press release..." Nothing new yet as the investigation continues, but it occupies the rabid ass press, if only for a moment and sidetracks the "narrative" if even just for a bit each day, no?

Communication is a big deal in today's world, even if you don't really say a damn thing. Am I wrong? I keep seeing it happening on the press/SJW side, so it can't be that far off.

quote:

Originally posted by stoic-one:
I guess most here don't get why the PD, or whoever the investigative body is, can't get out in front of the press by making "A" statement.

It doesn't even have to include new information, just step up to the mics and regurgitate, just like the press does. It's how the game is played today, 24/7 news cycle.

"Hi, I'm capt blah blah, Public Relations Officer for blah blah, as I've explained before in our previous press release..." Nothing new yet as the investigation continues, but it occupies the rabid ass press, if only for a moment and sidetracks the "narrative" if even just for a bit each day, no?

Communication is a big deal in today's world, even if you don't really say a damn thing. Am I wrong? I keep seeing it happening on the press/SJW side, so it can't be that far off.

You are completely right. There has certainly been a paradigm shift. I doubt their failure will have the same effect were the roles reversed, though. No. I am 100% certain their failure will not have the same effect.

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:
You are completely right. There has certainly been a paradigm shift. I doubt their failure will have the same effect were the roles reversed, though. No. I am 100% certain their failure will not have the same effect.

Paradigm shift is exactly where I was going, it's the new normal, like it or hate it.

Personally, I hate it.

quote:

Originally posted by Scoutmaster:
I might suggest there are some key differences between the "backgrounds" of the two now dead people in the Ferguson and Minneapolis matters, and some key differences in the circumstances.

Yep, the narrative on social media in this case is that this will the ONE AND ONLY TIME a police officer will be convicted of murder. Believe it or not, that is what is being spewed now. The BLM crowd is saying that this officer is going to be hung out to dry due to _____________. Yeah, you know how to fill in the blank.

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:

quote:

Originally posted by stoic-one:
I guess most here don't get why the PD, or whoever the investigative body is, can't get out in front of the press by making "A" statement.

It doesn't even have to include new information, just step up to the mics and regurgitate, just like the press does. It's how the game is played today, 24/7 news cycle.

"Hi, I'm capt blah blah, Public Relations Officer for blah blah, as I've explained before in our previous press release..." Nothing new yet as the investigation continues, but it occupies the rabid ass press, if only for a moment and sidetracks the "narrative" if even just for a bit each day, no?

Communication is a big deal in today's world, even if you don't really say a damn thing. Am I wrong? I keep seeing it happening on the press/SJW side, so it can't be that far off.

You are completely right. There has certainly been a paradigm shift. I doubt their failure will have the same effect were the roles reversed, though. No. I am 100% certain their failure will not have the same effect.

Totally agree.

We now live in an instant communication immediate-digital access world. Like it or not.

That's not going to change.

The LE 'taking their time' response does not inspire confidence. Get in front of it as best you can as quickly as you can if only to state obvious facts and defer frequently with 'can't comment on that at this time'...

Sheesh. You'd think this was the first time something like this ever happened.

--------------------------------

I'm in the camp of waiting for the results of a proper investigation. But I have a general question that hopefully someone with LEO experience could shed light on.

Obviously, every situation is different and there is no way to tell what was going on just before the shooting. But is it unusual that the police would stay seated in their vehicle when stopped in a dark alley while investigating an alleged assault? And remain seated in the vehicle while someone (anyone) approaches them? Especially if at least one officer thinks the situation warrants drawing his handgun?

Seems like that is leaving yourself in a very vulnerable position. Standing on your feet just outside the vehicle would make a lot more sense to me. Keep the door(s) open if you think you may need to jump back in for some reason. I'm just asking for information here, not trying to second guess or flame anyone.