quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
Be aware that the first time you get your hands on the flight controls and discover, "Yes, I really can do this," you may have involuntarily committed yourself. Those childhood dreams can come true; it's just a matter of money.

100% this.
My dentist took me up for my first flight in the above mentioned C 150. I was instantly hooked.
Funds was the main halt to my PP quest.
I stopped at around 26 hours & soloed at 9hrs.
Almost all of my flight time was out of a small uncontrolled/non-towered airport north of Beaumont, TX. Just pre-flight, hop in & go.

I'm at about 12 hours and don't feel ready to solo. I just can't seem to get the hang of the landings yet. I think I will take longer than most to hit just about every milestone because I came into this journey scared to death of flying. It's going to take some time before I'm comfortable enough to go up alone.

Also - Insurance question.
Who are the main players in aviation insurance? Can I assume that there is a big difference in cost to insure an experimental vs certified aircraft?

quote:

Also - Insurance question.
Who are the main players in aviation insurance? Can I assume that there is a big difference in cost to insure an experimental vs certified aircraft?

Depends upon the homebuilt model and pilot. I carry $1M liability only on the LongEZ, full hull on the Baron. Insurance could be $500 to $5,000/yr on a homebuilt experimental.

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Originally posted by aileron:

quote:

Also - Insurance question.
Who are the main players in aviation insurance? Can I assume that there is a big difference in cost to insure an experimental vs certified aircraft?

Depends upon the homebuilt model and pilot. I carry $1M liability only on the LongEZ, full hull on the Baron. Insurance could be $500 to $5,000/yr on a homebuilt experimental.

What accounts for the $500-$5000 range? Is it mostly pilot-related?

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

When I started, airplane rentals were as low as fifteen dollars an hour

I started at the Asbury Park NJ airport (no longer there). The 65 hp Aeronca Champ that I started in was six bucks / hour, wet, with another two bucks / hour for the instructor.

My instructor at the time was a guy with a commercial certificate, he was working on the instructor certificate, and he instructed me under the supervision of a certificated instructor. Looking back, I'm not sure how legit the logged dual instruction was, but I did not know enough at the time to question it.

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:

Also - Insurance question. Who are the main players in aviation insurance? Can I assume that there is a big difference in cost to insure an experimental vs certified aircraft?

Two big factors in the cost of insurance are the airplane -- safety record for the specific make and model, and the value, and of course the pilot's qualification.

Example: I was paying less than $2,000.00 / year for full coverage for my Bonanza. I had over five thousand hours in that series airplane, with a commercial certificate, instrument rated, flight instructor certificate (airplane single and multi engine and instrument), and I had been instructing in Bonanzas for many years and over a thousand hours.

Contrast that to a friend who acquired a Bonanza, he was a non-instrument private pilot with about 125 hours logged, mainly in Cessna 172. He was quoted a bit over $11,000.00 premium for insurance. We got that cut in half by negotiating with the underwriter, agreeing that my friend would not fly the airplane without me on board until he had earned an instrument rating and had at least fifty hours of instruction from me in that airplane. Still, something over $5,000.00 insurance premium is a hefty chunk of money.

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:


What accounts for the $500-$5000 range? Is it mostly pilot-related?

The difference isn't simply certification experimental, vs. a production aircraft. There are a lot of experimental aircraft, ranging from low and slow to high and fast, piston powered, turbine powered. There are designs with good track records, and not.

There are a lot of pilots, each with unique training and experience. More than simply their total hours, their experience counts. Their certification, and their training counts.

When I was a kid, it cost a lot more to insure me to spray crops, than it cost others; that was one of the liabilities to hiring me. The other was lack of experience. Even as I gained experience, I still cost more; age. Charter passengers would ask to see my driver license to see if I was old enough. I kid not.

If you're flying something with floats and have no seaplane experience, you'll be more expensive to insure. If you're flying turbine equipment, you'll be more expensive to insure.

The type of insurance and the amount, of course, makes a big difference. Full hull insurance vs. liability. What you're insured to do in that aircraft also makes a big difference. Giving or providing instruction, for example.

Your background makes a difference. I've had insurers point to my aerial wildland firefighting background and draw the line at life insurance: won't insure. One well known aviation insurer refused to cover me for aircraft with life insurance, without a statement that I'd never fight fire or spray crops again. Your background counts. Even the aircraft owners and pilots association insurance had riders and exclusions applicable to my background, what I would and wouldn't be covered doing. In other cases, I could get coverage for certain things while others were much more expensive to insure.

Fast and high performance will usually cost more. Retractable gear will cost more. Multi engine will cost more. Higher policy limits and greater coverage, costs more. Lower experience costs more. Less training costs more. Higher risk experience can cost more. Higher risk operations or aircraft cost more. Tailwheel aircraft can cost more. Commercial services cost more. Nature of intended operation can cost more. The devil, and his expenses, are in the details.

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Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:


What accounts for the $500-$5000 range? Is it mostly pilot-related?

The difference isn't simply certification experimental, vs. a production aircraft.....

Thanks for that - interesting and helpful.

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:


What accounts for the $500-$5000 range? Is it mostly pilot-related?

The difference isn't simply certification experimental, vs. a production aircraft.....

Thanks for that - interesting and helpful.
You too, Vtail.

New question . Where do people build these things? I imagine you need a pretty good space to build a plane and paint it. Even when I lived in my big house, there was no way I could do it even in my garage (plus what do you do when you're finished? You can't just take off down the street.)

A lot can be done at home. Many rent a t-hangar at the local airport (often hard to come by) and build there, or a storage locker. A single car garage will work for most of the project until it's time to start attaching wings.

Some projects use folding wings and a trailer. Many don't.

The experimental aircraft association is divided into chapters, and it may be possible to share building space, rent some hangar floor, or find other means of cooperating with other members in the area.

Some builders power through projects, others take a long, long time. I have a Sorrell Guppy that's been under construction for a couple of decades, and a RV-6 not far removed from that. I was one of those guys that once thought an advertised 1200 hour building time could be done in 1200 hours...and it can if there's little else to do, one has the work time and space, and a job that allows it. A lot of builders never finish, just like many start pilot training and never finish.

The more I look, the more I like the Sling TSi.
Hard to find a good used 182 for the price of a brand new fully loaded TSi.

But I have no intention of spending 1500-2000 hours building an airplane, so unless a used one appears on the market when I'm ready, it's probably not going to happen.

But don't worry, SigForm pilots. I have barely 12 hours logged in my flying career. Not making any purchases anytime soon. Just gathering information and dreaming.

Look at Vans RV-10.
I’m on a similar journey as you.
Started flying last year.
Building an RV-14.
Good luck. It’s been lots of fun, frustrating and educational.
My landings still need work too.

I’ve always dreamed of building an aircraft along with my best friend. We grew up in south Miami, his dad flew F4s as instructor out of Homestead and was part of the Bonanza club (v35 and A36) at Tamiami before Andrew. I got a lot of of right seat instruction in the v35, and was strongly advised to go well beyond just basic pilot.

Fast forward, did not keep current and my buddy and I both had life intrude. He ultimately decided to buy a Cherokee so he could fly “now” and frankly the best decision. It is forgiving, good for building hours and practical & fun to fly around Florida.

We are now talking about building an RV together as we come up closer to retirement. My point is - get into something that matches your current hours/skills that also let’s you get in the air now for good $$. Then look to step into that dream plane- either Sling, RV, Bonanza or ? But like firearms - the training and time is more important than the equipment.

Specific to the sling - go to YouTube and look up Mojogrip. He did the builder assist on a Sling and has more details than anyone on that specific aircraft. Good luck and have fun - as someone mentioned it is a commitment that comes with a ton of smiles.

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:


What accounts for the $500-$5000 range? Is it mostly pilot-related?

The difference isn't simply certification experimental, vs. a production aircraft.....

Thanks for that - interesting and helpful.
You too, Vtail.

New question . Where do people build these things? I imagine you need a pretty good space to build a plane and paint it. Even when I lived in my big house, there was no way I could do it even in my garage (plus what do you do when you're finished? You can't just take off down the street.)

The people I see build these generally live in a rural area and have a large steel building and grass field they can take off with it when they're done. It's more of a hobby for them to build it, or they want a certain style plane they could never purchase in non kit form. Such as there is a popular kit for a smaller scale replica of a P-51 mustang.

Another question for the pilots.....I'm still having trouble with landings - maintaining centerline and timing the roundout/flare. Would something like MS Flight Simulator be any good for practice in between flights with my CFI??

It's been years since I've been on MS Flight Sim, 2000 maybe. In that case, it was far too forgiving to be relevant practice, I'm sure the newer version are much better.

Practice, practice, practice.

When I first solo'd, I spent quite a few of my first solo flights just doing orbits of the airport, touch & go's and full stop T&Gs.

Luckily, we were an untowered airport a couple hours east of Houston with very little traffic.
It also had a long enough runway that you could full stop a C150 & have plenty of runway left to depart without having to loop back to the end.

quote:

Originally posted by P250UA5:

Practice, practice, practice.

I'm practicing as much as I can. Did 8 T&Gs at today's lesson....but with the price of the instructor and plane, it works out to about $50 per landing. Would be nice to get some additional reps at no cost if the sim was actually useful for practice.

Cost was what stopped my flying at a bit under 30 hours.
And that was with a free plane & cheap instructor, and 100LL was around $2.15/gal.

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
Another question for the pilots.....I'm still having trouble with landings - maintaining centerline and timing the roundout/flare. Would something like MS Flight Simulator be any good for practice in between flights with my CFI??

X-Plane or MS flight simulator are good…but nothing can replace your butt-gyro. You know, the feeling you get when you enter ground effect.
The flight sims ARE good for developing (and refining) the sight picture needed for landing.

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
Another question for the pilots.....I'm still having trouble with landings - maintaining centerline and timing the roundout/flare. Would something like MS Flight Simulator be any good for practice in between flights with my CFI??

No. But try soft field t/off's to give you more time in that attitude. It should help ya with your landings.