What I find neat is that some manufacturers can say (for example) Revolver XYZ was shipped to Clyde's Hardware Store in Kingman Kansas on April 19th 1926 ...

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
ATF does NOT have a central data base of guns ownership. We occasionally get "trace" requests at the store. It requires us to determine the year of purchase and sort thru that particular year's file. It's quite a task. Some states may have databases, such as California, but if there was a central one we wouldn't get trace requests.

I believe you to be wasting your breath. Ghost stories are more fun.

2015, a couple of ATF agents dropped by my house inquiring about a couple of guns I used to own (am the original purchaser), a Cobray M11 carbine and a Bushmaster 9mm AR pistol. They were doing tracing because the guns ended up in some crimes south of the border. I told them yeah, I used to own them but sold them several years ago, legally, to some TX residents. Then, the discussion turned to the following. We were all standing at the front door.

ATF - We notice that you buy a lot of guns. A lot of SIGs. How many do you have?
Me - Yeah, I love to collect guns. Yeah, love SIGs. Got a lot of them.
ATF - How many?
Me - A lot.
ATF - Like the P226?
Me - Yeah, but I like the P228 more.
ATF - The P226 is in .45 right?
Me - No, it's never in .45. It's in 9mm.
ATF - Ok, thank you. Have a nice day.

Oh yeah, Big Brother is watching us.

I’ve helped do inventory and appraisals on estate firearm collections where some of the original purchases went as far back to say, 1930.
We always referred to these pre-1968 pieces as “legacy” firearms.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
ATF does NOT have a central data base of guns ownership. We occasionally get "trace" requests at the store. It requires us to determine the year of purchase and sort thru that particular year's file. It's quite a task. Some states may have databases, such as California, but if there was a central one we wouldn't get trace requests.

Every trace request I have received tells me the date the distributor shipped it to me.

quote:

Originally posted by SBrooks:
just reading an answer on Quora about cops tracing firearms that were purchased from a store (instead of friend to friend).
If the government was trying to take guns, would they be looking at grandchildren for guns if grand parent and parent are both deceased ? Or would the deceased owner/purchaser be the end of any formal search activity ? Just curious .... not paranoid

New York state made a project of this some years ago. IIRC, they mostly confiscated the guns without charges, or may have allowed a time for re-registering the gun with the state.

Apparently some firearms manufacturers keep records for a LOOOOONG time.

1971/72 time frame a friend of mine sold me his fathers 1894 Winchester rifle. My girl friends father worked at Winchester and looked up the serial number in their records. He told me the date of manufacture, that it was produced with the "Kings Improvement" and that it was shipped to a hardware store in Providence Rhode Island. That date matched the time period (late 1890s-earely 1900s) that my friends father would have been living in Rhode Island. Subsequently, I sold it back to my friend due to the history and told him to keep it as an heirloom.

The first pistol I purchased after the 4473 came into being was sold to me by a small hardware store in about 1970. That store went out of business about two years later. The copies of the 4473s, which as I recall were barely legible, are buried so deeply in some .gov warehouse that only desperation will ever dig them out.
When and if dug out, if legible, they would show a sale to someone long gone, and no I did not use my SS# on the form. No state/city firearm registration was required there at that time.

So, that Chiefs Special, which no doubt S&W's records show being shipped to Ajax Hardware in Podunk IL, might as well not exist.

Most old manufacturer's records, at least S&W's end up being a dead end. I bought a Model 41 from a S&W Distributor in 1965, that Distributor is long gone, as are their records, at least based upon other peoples attempts at search.

States/Cities which have required registration of firearms may be able to connect a long ago purchase, however, if you have ever tried to find an old record in most states, counties, or cities, I would not hold my breath.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
ATF does NOT have a central data base of guns ownership. We occasionally get "trace" requests at the store. It requires us to determine the year of purchase and sort thru that particular year's file. It's quite a task. Some states may have databases, such as California, but if there was a central one we wouldn't get trace requests.

Can you explain how a small town PD in NH would have a printout of every firearm purchase I had made in NH? I did not imagine this.

I think if it really comes down to it... full confiscation, 'they' will not be coming for the guns... they'll just round us all up for the free trip to camp.

quote:

Originally posted by SIGGUY (THE 1ST):

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
ATF does NOT have a central data base of guns ownership. We occasionally get "trace" requests at the store. It requires us to determine the year of purchase and sort thru that particular year's file. It's quite a task. Some states may have databases, such as California, but if there was a central one we wouldn't get trace requests.

Can you explain how a small town PD in NH would have a printout of every firearm purchase I had made in NH? I did not imagine this.

My guess is you were under investigation for something. Or NH has some kind of law that puts it in a database. What Fred is telling you is the truth. There is no federal “big brother” database that has all of your purchases in it.

This is why Polymer80 is so successful.

"The first pistol I purchased after the 4473 came into being was sold to me by a small hardware store in about 1970. That store went out of business about two years later. The copies of the 4473s, which as I recall were barely legible, are buried so deeply in some .gov warehouse that only desperation will ever dig them out."

I've wondered about this. 20 years ago I purchased a pistol from a gun shop that went out of business about 10 years ago. From what I understand, they had to box up their records and send them either to the local ATF office or the NTC(National Tracing Center). What happens to those records then? My understanding is that the local gun shop can destroy records that are over 20 years old. Does the ATF or NTC ever destroy those records? Just curious.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
Depends on if one had a horse, or a child had a fever, or a grandchild ever ate tacos.

(Replying for a friend.)

Chicken, or beef tacos?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by SIGGUY (THE 1ST):

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
ATF does NOT have a central data base of guns ownership. We occasionally get "trace" requests at the store. It requires us to determine the year of purchase and sort thru that particular year's file. It's quite a task. Some states may have databases, such as California, but if there was a central one we wouldn't get trace requests.

Can you explain how a small town PD in NH would have a printout of every firearm purchase I had made in NH? I did not imagine this.

My guess is you were under investigation for something. Or NH has some kind of law that puts it in a database. What Fred is telling you is the truth. There is no federal “big brother” database that has all of your purchases in it.

Here are two possibilities:
When dealers go out of business they turn in the 4473's to the ATF who eventually enter all that info into their database. After 20 years the FFL can destroy them but I've known FFLs who get a new license and close the old one (by changing business names) just to keep from having to store 1000's of 4473's.

Multiple handgun purchases (and multiple long gun in birder states) require the FFL to submit a fork to the ATF and chief LEO. It has everything, all personal info, firearm info and serial number. I've been called by the ATF when a serial number on an old pistol was entered wrong so they do enter that into their database.

Believe whatever you choose. Yes, records are kept from manufacturer too dealer. After, that, anyone's guess.

quote:

Originally posted by Ogie:
"The first pistol I purchased after the 4473 came into being was sold to me by a small hardware store in about 1970. That store went out of business about two years later. The copies of the 4473s, which as I recall were barely legible, are buried so deeply in some .gov warehouse that only desperation will ever dig them out."

I've wondered about this. 20 years ago I purchased a pistol from a gun shop that went out of business about 10 years ago. From what I understand, they had to box up their records and send them either to the local ATF office or the NTC(National Tracing Center). What happens to those records then? My understanding is that the local gun shop can destroy records that are over 20 years old. Does the ATF or NTC ever destroy those records? Just curious.

The records ultimately go to NTC. ATF (criminal enforcement side) never sees nor touched them. If the local ATF office doesn’t have an industry operations representative, they go to a field office that has one. And from there to NTC. Once at NTC, they are stored in connex boxes until they are purged. Same goes with form 3310 (multiple handgun form).

Despite the insistence that they are entered into a “database”, there is no database.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Ogie:
"The first pistol I purchased after the 4473 came into being was sold to me by a small hardware store in about 1970. That store went out of business about two years later. The copies of the 4473s, which as I recall were barely legible, are buried so deeply in some .gov warehouse that only desperation will ever dig them out."

I've wondered about this. 20 years ago I purchased a pistol from a gun shop that went out of business about 10 years ago. From what I understand, they had to box up their records and send them either to the local ATF office or the NTC(National Tracing Center). What happens to those records then? My understanding is that the local gun shop can destroy records that are over 20 years old. Does the ATF or NTC ever destroy those records? Just curious.

The records ultimately go to NTC. ATF (criminal enforcement side) never sees nor touched them. If the local ATF office doesn’t have an industry operations representative, they go to a field office that has one. And from there to NTC. Once at NTC, they are stored in connex boxes until they are purged. Same goes with form 3310 (multiple handgun form).

Despite the insistence that they are entered into a “database”, there is no database.

Thanks for the info! Do they purge them after 20 years or some other time frame?

It is supposed to be 20 for 4473s. I won’t pretend that some don’t go 21-22 years as there are a LOT of old forms and not every one gets destroyed to the day. But, I know that I have t had a lot of luck beyond that 20 year mark with out of business records branch.

But it’s supposed to be 20.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by SIGGUY (THE 1ST):

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
ATF does NOT have a central data base of guns ownership. We occasionally get "trace" requests at the store. It requires us to determine the year of purchase and sort thru that particular year's file. It's quite a task. Some states may have databases, such as California, but if there was a central one we wouldn't get trace requests.

Can you explain how a small town PD in NH would have a printout of every firearm purchase I had made in NH? I did not imagine this.

My guess is you were under investigation for something. Or NH has some kind of law that puts it in a database. What Fred is telling you is the truth. There is no federal “big brother” database that has all of your purchases in it.

That’s kinda scary. I have a squeaky clean record (other than some speeding tickets).
Thanks for the input!