quote:

Originally posted by Johnny 3eagles:
While I try to steer clear of products made in countries that are communist, I absolutely hold the line on foods produced in China.

Definitely this.

quote:

Originally posted by low8option:

quote:

Originally posted by Johnny 3eagles:
While I try to steer clear of products made in countries that are communist, I absolutely hold the line on foods produced in China.

Definitely this.

And dog treats. How many have they poisoned over the years.

The United States does not exist in a vacuum. It is merely just a single participant, albeit one of the more significant participants, in a whole global ecosystem of players.

I don't think buying some random Chinese manufactured product, and the net trade deficit it contributes to, can be clearly delineated as "good for U.S." or "bad for U.S." It really isn't so simple.

The dollars that we spend that flow to China aren't necessarily "bad." As China's middle class grows, the Communist party's grasp on their nation weakens. Nothing is as effective at combating communism as is showing people that their hard work can raise them out of poverty. Every iPhone you buy helps a Chinese worker get sick and tired of having his neck stepped on by the Chinese government. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

And, for the record, not every dollar spent domestically is good for your "American ideals." Remember, roughly half of this country doesn't agree with you politically.

There were corporate bans on communist china in the 1990's. They were given "Most Favored Nation" trading status and other benefits in an effort to make them more like us. We see now how that worked out.

There was a previous thread by Para about chinese made products. One idea was to call the company and ask. If made in china to express your distaste. Maybe they should hear from their customers.

quote:

Originally posted by mtnwind:
I'm of the opinion that if I purchase a 'Made In China' product (Holosun optics), I'm directly supporting the overthrow of this nation.

Comments?

It is almost the exact opposite:

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles
As China's middle class grows, the Communist party's grasp on their nation weakens. Nothing is as effective at combating communism as is showing people that their hard work can raise them out of poverty. Every iPhone you buy helps a Chinese worker get sick and tired of having his neck stepped on by the Chinese government.

quote:

Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:
almost the exact opposite:

Tell that to the at least 1 million Muslim minority Uighurs held in Chinese government-run detention centers.

quote:

Originally posted by braillediver:

quote:

Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:
almost the exact opposite:

Tell that to the at least 1 million Muslim minority Uighurs held in Chinese government-run detention centers.

The CCP doesn't play around. There have been a few high profile terrorist acts that have been blamed on the muslims in Xinjiang. The CCP sees radical islam as a threat to security, and a "cause" that will create increasing dissent. Mao nearly eliminated religion for a very good reason - because it gives people hope to persevere against injustice. And now Xi is going to "re-educate" muslims by any mean necessary to eliminate islam. There will be no 9/11 in China on his watch.

Of course we abhor this because we believe in freedom or religion, freedom of thought, freedom of association, and freedom of speech, because muslims are mostly peaceful. And you know what? So did the French teacher that got his head cut off a few weeks ago.

I'm not advocating what China is doing to the Uighurs, but I understand their reasons.

quote:

Originally posted by braillediver:

quote:

Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:
almost the exact opposite:

Tell that to the at least 1 million Muslim minority Uighurs held in Chinese government-run detention centers.

How does support for the continued growth of the Chinese Middle Class affect how the PRC chooses to treat their religious sects.

The PRC isn't equipped to handle their growing Middle Class because they never expected it to develop. Also bear in mind that much, if not all, of their Middle Class are members of the Party

I’d rather support a fellow Americans job than some chinaman.

quote:

Originally posted by coloradohunter44:


And dog treats. How many have they poisoned over the years.

Slight thread drift: for the dogs: http://www.smokehousepet.com/_treats/primechips.html

quote:

Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
I’d rather support a fellow Americans job than some chinaman.

Three things to say about that:

Chinese people are deserving of prosperity, despite what what their government does.

A rising tide lifts all boats. No where is it spoken that China's growing economy means an American's lifestyle must suffer. As America's economy grew and took the lead post war, we have also driven the prosperity of those around us. It's not a zero sum game.

Freeing up labor is the name of the game. For every low skill, low wage job a "chinaman" takes from an American, there is now a set of American hands that is free to pursue a highly skilled, high paying job. Let the Chinese make flashlights while Americans send rockets into space, cure diseases, and engineer the next generation of technology and craftsmanship.

Except with American education - we are increasingly unable to send rockets,cure disease, or engineer much of anything. 75 percent of the population can't figure out why they can't get good jobs with their "education" or what gender bathroom to use. The other 25 percent can't support everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:

quote:

Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
I’d rather support a fellow Americans job than some chinaman.

Three things to say about that:

Chinese people are deserving of prosperity, despite what what their government does.

A rising tide lifts all boats. No where is it spoken that China's growing economy means an American's lifestyle must suffer. As America's economy grew and took the lead post war, we have also driven the prosperity of those around us. It's not a zero sum game.

Freeing up labor is the name of the game. For every low skill, low wage job a "chinaman" takes from an American, there is now a set of American hands that is free to pursue a highly skilled, high paying job. Let the Chinese make flashlights while Americans send rockets into space, cure diseases, and engineer the next generation of technology and craftsmanship.

Aetocles, I normally concur strongly with your posts, but in this regard we disagree.

I agree with your first point, of course!

Trade, you are correct, is not a zero sum game. However, it can be a very dangerous game - one of the common myths is that trade averts war, when in many cases it can foment conflict. The biggest trade partners pre-WWI and pre-WWII all went to war with each other, Germany’s trade with Britain and France helped it to develop the military forces that wrought destruction. Japan’s trade with the US not only indirectly (economically) but directly helped it fight, with some Zeros attacking Pearl Harbor having US made engines! What price do you put on American, or Chinese lives if we ultimately have conflict (cold or hot, lives are still lost).

On your last point, this is true to an extent (economics is my degree focus). However, one key point that cannot be overlooked is what is technically true from a sample population cannot be attributed to the whole; in other words, not everyone can be a rocket scientist. In any given population, with a normal spread of IQ and ability, you have to enable even the less talented to have meaningful roles. Part of the issue with Chinese trade (and the population imbalance) is that Americans who fall on the lower side of the IQ scale are priced out of appropriate work. If a laborer in China can screw together a widget for $2 an hour, and the cheapest “legal” American is $8, there will never be a moment when that role will be filled in the US.

Ignoring the last point will lead to a lot of unrest, government assistance and severe political imbalances. I’d counsel you to read about the Roman republic, and the issues they had with military veterans and how they created a three tier system of plebes, patricians and slaves. We run dangerously close to creating that same model, with “slaves” being the low-cost overseas production, patricians being those who benefit (as you pointed out, those with intellectual and other talents who generate higher marginal benefit), and plebes who form the bulk of the US lower middle/lower class.

Globalization lowers labour costs - so while the guy in china goes from 0 to 2 dollars per hour the western worker goes from 10 to 7 dollars an hour. Problem is the western worker needs 10 per hour to live.

Not sure if you have followed the IT industry here, but I have seen many 100K per year IT jobs move to India over the past 25 years. No way I can compete with an Indian at 15K per year when I was getting 115K per year (plus benefits).

It's not just the so called low skill jobs, but also a lot of very high skilled and very well paying jobs that have disappeared in the West.

And retraining is not as simple as it seems. It costs money and lots of it for these higher skill paying jobs, if one has the aptitude for it.

Plus after retraining you effectively start at the bottom again, if you can get a job in the retrained field - and age becomes a negative factor, quickly.

If you are young and starting out, then yes, you can retool, but older workers (upper 40's and on) are fucked for the most part.

It's not just the US. I see it in Europe too - same story as here with once highly paid workers. Happened to my Uncle in the mid-90's in Germany.

Economics can be simplified in to supply and demand, but under the hood, economics is much more intricate.

Reloader, I of course value your perspective as well.

I don't have a response that adequately addresses your well considered position, other than say that don't let my oversimplified points distract from the underlying premise:

American prosperity and global prosperity are not mutually exclusive--we do not have to pick one "rather than" the other.

quote:

Originally posted by icom706:
...snip...

Economics can be simplified in to supply and demand, but under the hood, economics is much more intricate.

Understood, but that sort of market friction has always (and will always) exist. When agriculture mechanized, laborers were replaced dozens at a time by a single machine--their labor replaced by a lower cost method. Yes, there will always be painful situations. But, overall, on a macro scale, the world's economic output has improved because of mechanization of agriculture. Without it, we wouldn't have freed up the labor to get educated and become the engineers and creators the world currently relies on today.

Yes, individually, it sucks for an IT guy making $115k who is too old to retrain and can't compete with an Indian guy. BUT, certainly the field is progressing as a whole--the guys who are still pulling $115k have pressure to up skill. Thus, a typical employee, on average, will be more skilled than the typical employee of yesteryear.

The problem is that you don’t free up labor here, you pay the chinaman, and then you pay unemployment for an American. You probably also pay the externalities of rising crime, and let’s throw in section 8 and food stamps for the family for good measure.

There are lots of good points on both sides of the aisle in this thread. While I don’t begrudge a Chinese citizen, or Indian or German or Russian citizen the opportunity to be successful there is one problem that I have supporting the Chinese. It seems to be almost part of the Chinese cultural identity that they don’t believe in or respect the notion of intellectual property. In my opinion that belief is incongruous with the world we live in today. For that reason as well as others I choose to not support China whenever I have the opportunity to not support China or to minimize my support of China. This may seem overly simplistic but to me the lack of respect for intellectual property that is basically universal amongst the Chinese is almost as much of a threat to our current society as radical Islam. It is simply not compatible with our ideals.