So, rather than hi-jack a thread, I'd like to start a discussion here.

I'm of the opinion that if I purchase a 'Made In China' product (Holosun optics), I'm directly supporting the overthrow of this nation.

Comments?

Buy domestically made products when you can as a good practice. Support the 45th President because his administration represents the best check against hegemonic PRC government.

Unfortunately it's hard not to buy some ChiCom products or components of those products right now but you are on the right track.
Read labels and try to minimize how much money we send those commie pricks.
This didn't happen overnight and it won't be fixed overnight.
Intentional or not, (and I think few here would want to intentionally support them) buying their products is supporting Communism, real, present day slave labor, and a host of other things none of us here support.

And remember a comment made by a Forum member on another thread - if it doesn't list where it is made, it was made in China.

quote:

Originally posted by mtnwind:
So, rather than hi-jack a thread, I'd like to start a discussion here.

I'm of the opinion that if I purchase a 'Made In China' product (Holosun optics), I'm directly supporting the overthrow of this nation.

Comments?

Yes, 100%. I hate it when I see members here proud of their Harbor Freight etc chinesium purchase, that’s the blood of future generations that you are potentially spilling.

I try to buy almost everything I can outside of China. It’s difficult with some electronics, but other than that it’s not impossible. My mentality is that if I can’t afford the “real” product (I.e. made somewhere in the USA/Europe/anywhere but China...), then I don’t need it.

quote:

Originally posted by mtnwind:
I'm of the opinion that if I purchase a 'Made In China' product (Holosun optics), I'm directly supporting the overthrow of this nation.

Comments?

A very simplistic conclusion.

China is many things when it comes to manufactured products, most American's are not aware of how complex a supply chain is when it comes to production and manufactured goods. While China has evolved its economy from basic labor (apparel, shoes, ready-to-wear, tools etc) to the complex (electronics, pharmaceuticals, precision instruments/tools, etc) what hasn't changed is their raw goods industry. Heavy industry like fabric mills, steel mills, foundries, plastic plants, chemical plants, refineries, laboratories, etc... dot their landscape suppling the entire global manufacturing industry. While the clothes, backpacks, electronics, tools, parts or, medicine that you buy are made in another country, there's a very, VERY good chance that the materials used to assemble that item, came from China.

Its ok to voice your desire to buy non-China, ask the sales person where's the country of origin/manufacture, just don't get worked-up, indignant or, confrontational when you hear the answer you don't like, they're not the ones doing the purchasing. Let them know you'd prefer to buy products not made in China or, at least prefer Western Hemisphere production, if not North American made. USA Made if at all possible but, that's going to take time.

Yes, deciding not to support Communist China because it is an immediate threat to my nation is a pretty simplistic decision, or so it seems to me. Black or white (no shades of gray), yes or no (no maybe or kind of), true or false (no half truths) are all simplistic relationships.

The Communist Chinese economy did not 'evolve'. It was given a massive jump start when we gave them 'most favored nation' status, when we gave them 3rd World Nation status (no pollution regs) and then gave them all our manufacturing plants/data/intellectual property via NAFTA, when we gave them unchallenged access to our higher education system, when the Clinton administration sent Loral engineers to them to solve their ICBM launching problems, when we were too busy living the American Dream to watch the slight of hand going on between most of our political establishment and Communist Chinese $$$$, and when we chose to ignore the fact that their economy relies on 'slave/child labor'.

Supply chains are complex, and we can't possibly boycott everything that uses Communist Chinese raw materials. What we can do is to boycott known Communist Chinese products. Holosun evidently makes some great products; products that are built on stolen intellectual property. Trijicon has filed lawsuits in Michigan and California to try and protect their property. We are either a nation of laws and citizens who respect those laws or we are not. It doesn't matter what you or I think of Trijicon; the Holosun optics are built using stolen material and cheap (child)labor. Who do you think is digging up all that 'raw material'?

I'd love to buy a nice optic with quality & features that may exceed what Trijicon offers all while costing hundreds of $ less. But I'm not for sale. The Chinese Communists believe every American has their price because they already own our politicians. Well, God willing, they will never own me.

I duckduckgoed it and apparently Holosun is tied to the Chinese military. That's pretty bad.

I also learned a couple of Sig optics, the Romeo 5 and 6 at least are/were assembled in China. While that certainly doesn't give me warm fuzzies I do think there is a distinction between US or other Western countries that have stuff made in China vs Chinese companies that sell their cheap intellectually stolen goods here.

When it comes to optics in particular the price difference between a quality Western product and cheap Chicom junk is about a case of ammo. Small price to pay for both Country and peace of mind.

China recently invaded the Yoop. We just opened a Harbor Freight.

I've spent a lot of time in China starting up new factories so my company can build product in China to sell in China. Those import tariffs make it almost impossible to build product in the US and ship it to China, unless you are selling luxury products that Chinese are willing to pay twice the price for.

Trump was fighting their tariffs with new tariffs of our own, but he got lambasted for it. With all the talk of "equity" you would think people would get the idea of matching tariffs % for % until the Chinese lower theirs. It's a brute force method but it got their attention. And I'm certain the CCP did a lot to influence the election to help Biden. Didn't help that the media never actually compared our tariffs with any rational analysis showing massive pre-existing imbalance.

To say things are complex is an understatement. Global supply chains are relentless about finding the lowest cost materials and component sources because of competition. Most any manufactured product you buy has parts or materials that were made in China. I met an ethnically Korean Chinese who was in fabric sales one time. The big high speed looming machines are in China because they are complicated and need a stable power grid. Cutting and sewing can be done anywhere you can put a sewing machine in front of a woman - Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia - wherever the labor is cheapest.

I've seen a lot of factories and I've never seen anything approaching slave labor or child labor. Our biggest issue is turnover. It's like the 50's and 60's in the US when you could go down the road and get a new job for a little higher hourly wage.

Things changed a lot with President Xi's rise to power. Although business visas are not hard to get, they are now limited in total days per year, whereas before 2015 they didn't really care. More and more companies are being pushed to send their expats home and hire/promote more Chinese mangers and executives. Some areas that were flourishing with foreign investment and activity have really slowed down. Xi wants control and wants to be the next Mao, but I think like most egoist dictators he will overplay his hand and have a dramatic downfall.

Despite the "communist" name, China is now a command capitalist economy. There are no handouts or basic minimum income or unemployment - if you want to eat you have to work. You don't see any layabouts, and panhandlers are almost nonexistent. Huge wealth disparities with many ultra rich driving exotic cars, along with a great divide to the working class. Middle class is sorta there but professionals don't do nearly as well as here until they get above middle management. They have universal basic healthcare but if you want anything better, you pay cash. The CCP does have people in many companies to keep watch on things and get paid for do-nothing jobs (kinda like the Mafia) but CCP ownership/control usually leads to poor performance so partial or full privatization that turns party insiders and their cronies until billionaires has been the way forward for a while. And the Chinese gov't actively promotes the nuclear family as the building block of society and encourages marriage as a means of social stability. Having children out of wedlock is illegal (there's a big fine) and not socially acceptable. Contrast all of that to the GDC's here that want to destroy the family and pay people not to work.

As for Trijicon - the MRO can be half the price of an Aimpoint, and not that much more expensive than one of the better Holosuns. When Scalarworks has the MRO with 1/3 lower mount bundle back in stock I am getting one.

I won’t mind paying extra for made in USA however try finding it. I wanted a circular saw blade - for a Black & Decker. Try to find one.

I tried very hard to buy a U.S.-made optic for my AR. To the point I made no purchase for something like two years in the hope someone would come out with something remotely affordable, met my specs, and didn't tweak my astigmatism too badly.

Didn't. Happen.

To add insult to injury: The optics company in my home state, when I reached out to them, politely blew me off. And there I was, prepared to spend about twice the money, for an optic that was worse for my astigmatism, and wait some more, if only they'd promise the hope for a better reticle.

Eventually I gave up and bought a Holosun optic.

Am I happy about it? No.

It's been another couple years since then. Is there now anything remotely competitive from a U.S. manufacturer?

Nope. Still not.

The Michigan manufacturer now makes an RDS with a circle-dot reticle, which was what I wanted, for nearly $1,000 MSRP - nearly three times the MSRP of the Holosun optic I bought. Hahaha! Bite me.

Oh, and things I would have been happy to give up to buy American at twice the price: Selectable reticles, auto-on/-off, auto-brightness (overrideable), solar power.

I guess I should have just done without an optic on my AR.

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
I won’t mind paying extra for made in USA however try finding it. I wanted a circular saw blade - for a Black & Decker. Try to find one.

A circular saw is a circular saw. I believe Freude blades are made in Europe. I believe there are some made in the US blades. The prices are not outrageous. I'm not certain, but I think Makita blades may still be made in Japan? DeWalt, same company owns B&D, does some manufacturing in the US. Don't know about their saw blades.

If you are against supporting communists, maybe avoid buying items from Democrat states/cities

quote:

I wanted a circular saw blade - for a Black & Decker. Try to find one.

Freud, Diablo and Irwin have blades which are made in Italy. They are readily available at Home Depot and Lowes.

Lefty Sig, thanks for the reference to Scalerworks. It looks like they make a well thought out, excellent product.

I was at the dealer for service and saw that the plain black license plate holders in the parts department was made in USA. Easy purchase to replace the dealer plate holder.

The problem with an "all or nothing" stance when it comes to Chinese made products is that it's virtually impossible not to be a hypocrite. Sure, you can do it if you are basically willing to live like a mountain man, living off the land and consuming virtually nothing commercially produced. If that's how you want to live your life, more power to you. But most people will be more reasonably able to make a smaller impact. Might be more realistic to adopt a stance that you will seek out non-foreign produced products when possible to make at least a small dent in the trade imbalance. We can't eat the elephant all at once, as as has been pointed out numerous times, many products are simply not available from domestic sources. But even a 10 percent reduction in spending on Chinese products would add up to big financial impact.

I don’t think anyone has an “all or nothing” stance, there are some products that cannot be sourced outside of China. But 90%+ of your consumption can easily be sourced, at the very least from a finished good standpoint.

While I try to steer clear of products made in countries that are communist, I absolutely hold the line on foods produced in China.