quote:

Originally posted by tatortodd:

quote:

In February, Rutte tried to reassure Washington that Europe is finally shouldering more of the burden and he gave credit to President Donald Trump.

The secretary-general noted it was the president, "when he was Trump 45 and now Trump 47," who consistently demanded that European allies and Canada spend more on defense, and argued that the new 5% target is exactly what Trump has been asking for since his first term.

I'm very interested in comparing NATO members' % of GDP spending on military in June '26 (i.e. 100% Trump) vs current June '25 (i.e. still Biden's lackluster influence).

I had Google AI pull up the June '25 numbers and compare to June '16 numbers. NATO hit 2.76% combined which up up from 2.4% combined. More importantly, in 2016 only 5 of 32 members were meeting 2% threshold and now it's 26 of 32 members. Italy, Canada, and Spain have approx 0% increase and remain below 2%.

Something to remember is that European countries have to balance their budgets and do not have the ability to just print money.

Russia cannot even handle Ukraine, let alone Poland.

quote:

Originally posted by fischtown7:
Something to remember is that European countries have to balance their budgets and do not have the ability to just print money.

That's a rose colored glasses view of it. They have a series of pacts, but only a small percentage actually achieve it and their politicians are all talk and zero action on enforcement on the slacker nations.

For example:

The official EU target is a 60% GDP to debt ratio, but only 5 of them achieve it and I'm being generous by rounding down for Germany. Southern Europe is rife with GDP to debt ratios of over 100%.

They have a balanced or surplus budget pact but only 6 of them achieve it.

In writing they have a series of political pressures and fines, but no fines or sanctions have ever been imposed. In general, the EU's politicians have the spine of a jellyfish.

---

Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.

My take on this is Mr. Rutte is out there doing a lot of fear mongering in order to justify continued funding for his and his organization's existence. If NATO goes away, he'll have to find a real job, that probably pays a lot less and would require him to do some actual work.
Will Russia attack Europe? Maybe, no one can say for sure. But it seems unlikely considering Russia seems to have more than their hands full for the last few years just dealing with a corrupt and inept Ukraine.

The EU didn't exist when NATO was formed. Let the EU take charge of Europes Defense.

Russia wants “natural borders”, and to exterminate all non “Russians” in those borders.

It’s what it has always wanted, barring brief periods of lying to foreigners when it needed an influx of people.

It has now adopted a concept of a holy war, meant to bring everyone under the Russian Orthodox church - at least, there has been talk like that.

They have an odd relationship with Muslims, as they use lots of Muslim troops, but it’s with the intent of extermination.

I vote we sit any of this out a good while.

quote:

Originally posted by JoseyWales2:
Rutte is out there doing a lot of fear mongering in order to justify continued funding

This. He needs money for his vacation home remodel on the French Riviera. Down the beach from one of Zelensky's mansions.

quote:

Originally posted by tatortodd:

quote:

Originally posted by fischtown7:
Something to remember is that European countries have to balance their budgets and do not have the ability to just print money.

That's a rose colored glasses view of it. They have a series of pacts, but only a small percentage actually achieve it and their politicians are all talk and zero action on enforcement on the slacker nations.

For example:

The official EU target is a 60% GDP to debt ratio, but only 5 of them achieve it and I'm being generous by rounding down for Germany. Southern Europe is rife with GDP to debt ratios of over 100%.

They have a balanced or surplus budget pact but only 6 of them achieve it.

In writing they have a series of political pressures and fines, but no fines or sanctions have ever been imposed. In general, the EU's politicians have the spine of a jellyfish.

You are correct, I misspoke in saying balance their budgets, they have been slipping on that.
And don't forget Britain and France, they are both for all practical purposes bankrupt.


One of the many reasons Gold, Silver and Bond Rates are doing what they are lately. Silver is over $64, Gold $4370 and our 10 year yield is 4.197 as I write this.

I have always said the Russians and Chinese are going to do to us, what we did to the Russians during the Cold War. Make them spend themselves to death. Dollar has been slipping hard against the Euro and Swiss Franc lately. And now that the Japanese Yen Carry trade is inverting, we are really going to get have to get creative on financing ourselves. 38.5 Trillion and counting.

quote:

Originally posted by sourdough44:
I vote we sit any of this out a good while.

From an emotional standpoint that sounds great.
The lessons from last century (and history still does count for something) are that approach has it's flaws, that come with major consequences for us an ocean away.

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:

quote:

Originally posted by sourdough44:
I vote we sit any of this out a good while.

From an emotional standpoint that sounds great.
The lessons from last century (and history still does count for something) are that approach has it's flaws, that come with major consequences for us an ocean away.

Just think if we had sat out WW 1, pretty likely WW 2 never would have happened. If we had ignored the Japanese and not embargoed their oil, Pearl Harbor also might not have happened. An unstable middle east also contributed to Europe looking like it does today.

I am with Trump on this, we need to quit worrying about trying to be the defenders of democracy and get our own house in order.

quote:

They [Europe] have a series of pacts ...

This is what led up to the First World War.

Should we have suffered all the abuses we did during WWI, of course not.

War is a socialist fantasy because it lets them grab control.

I don’t think WWI would have ended, without us, until/unless there was a revolution.

The aristocracy was having too much fun. There only reason for existence was war. Without it, they cannot justify being brigands.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Should we have suffered all the abuses we did during WWI, of course not.

War is a socialist fantasy because it lets them grab control.

I don’t think WWI would have ended, without us, until/unless there was a revolution.


The aristocracy was having too much fun. There only reason for existence was war. Without it, they cannot justify being brigands.

You said abuses we were suffering.

Europe was Imperialist and not Socialist when WW 1 was going on.

The Germans took out numerous ads in New York papers warning about passenger ships going to Europe.

Historical Context


The RMS Lusitania was torpedoed by a German U-boat on May 7, 1915, resulting in the deaths of 1,198 people, including 128 Americans. The sinking played a significant role in shifting public opinion in the United States against Germany and contributed to the U.S. entering World War I.
Evidence of Military Cargo
Physical Discoveries: Recent explorations of the wreck have uncovered live ammunition, including Remington .303 caliber bullets, confirming that the Lusitania was indeed carrying military cargo. This evidence supports long-held suspicions that the ship was transporting munitions, which would have made it a legitimate target under wartime rules.
2
Cargo Manifest: Historical records indicate that the Lusitania was carrying over 4.2 million rounds of small-arms ammunition, artillery shells, and other military supplies. Some items, such as fuses for artillery shells and gun-cotton, were listed on the cargo manifest, while others were rumored to be loaded without proper documentation.
2
Controversial Claims: The British government has historically been evasive about the extent of munitions on board. Some reports suggest that the ship was used as a high-speed munitions carrier, and there were allegations of a cover-up regarding the true nature of its cargo.
2

I've got zero issue with what Rutte is saying. The European members (and Canada) need to not only get their act together in recognizing there are genuine threats to the East but, they've got to update and recapitalize their defenses. His remarks are directed at the European members because he knows he has Trump & Co's support, imploring if not shaming those nations to start taking defense seriously. The recent drone incursions into Poland and Romania, Russian intel ships tapping-into undersea comm lines and Hoovering-up data off the UK, Norway and the main continent, increased FSB activity around Europe...its continued probing and seeing how much they can get away with.

For far too long, European members have relied upon the US as their security guarantor, when in reality, while the US is a pivotal partner it's bigger concern is in the Western Pacific and should things go kinetic, the US will shift all resources Westward. His message was to Europe, start making tangible investments.

Granted, this was the viewpoint in the 19th Century, and it still holds today, as no foreign power will be able to land an army in order to conquer it.

The 5th Column that walked across the Southern Border can cause mischief but will not be able to takeover without the turncoats that are already here.

Technological assaults will cause disruptions and setbacks, but work arounds exist. The electrical grid is a concern.

quote:

Originally posted by fischtown7:
Just think if we had sat out WW 1, pretty likely WW 2 never would have happened. If we had ignored the Japanese and not embargoed their oil, Pearl Harbor also might not have happened. An unstable middle east also contributed to Europe looking like it does today.

I am with Trump on this, we need to quit worrying about trying to be the defenders of democracy and get our own house in order.

I agree with this...

This and the Otto Von Bismarck quote above are good reasons to mind our own business.

People will say: "That's isolationist!" but I would say no, not isolationist: trade with other countries but it's not our responsibility to defend them. We are a sovereign nation and so are they. Treat them as such, they are responsible for defending themselves.

Britain has a standing army of 58000.
Russia loses that many a month.

Poland has maybe 500,000 at their disposal.

Poland is the biggest threat to Russian aggression. But for how long?

A) The abuses I was referring to, were those suffered under WWI, were those implemented by the Wilson administration.

B) Poland is an entirely different culture. They, and the Baltics, WANT to kill Russians. Poland vs Russia will turn into chemical warfare terrorism/nuclear terrorism in a hurry.

Now, maybe the younger gen’s are calmer. Not sure. Gen X and older have an incredibly intense hatred of Russians.

Ukraine is encouraging much of the neighbors of Russia to remember to hate Russians.

The behavior of the “exiled” Russians helps them to remember why they hate Russians.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Should we have suffered all the abuses we did during WWI, of course not.

War is a socialist fantasy because it lets them grab control.

I don’t think WWI would have ended, without us, until/unless there was a revolution.

The aristocracy was having too much fun. There only reason for existence was war. Without it, they cannot justify being brigands.

Europe needs a war to distract the population from other social issues. Namely the immigration issues, also a result of socialist policy.

Its going to happen, and we should not be involved.