So if a farmer's field is being devastated by varmints and he solicits folks to come out and shoots them by the hundreds should he be prosecuted for solicitation for murder? Or maybe just go broke and lose the farm I guess.



I can go to the grocery store and buy meat. Or I can buy a hunting license and tag and go afield and harvest a deer. Like ten's of thousands of ordinary, hardworking, American's have done for a couple hundred years and the indigenous people have done for hundred's of years before that.

Process it myself and feed my family and friends and know exactly what we are eating.

As I have alluded to. All you bacon eaters guess what. Millions of pigs get a spike to the ear so you can enjoy it. Even if you like Turkey bacon, guess what.

Wayne is an idiot and has been since the beginning. I do not like the idea of quote, unquote trophy hunting. But if it is legal than so be it. Until it isn't.

I love nature and animals and have been around them my whole life. So please do not belittle me because we disagree.

When I was young I got my first air rifle. Nice .177 cal Daisy that could do some damage. Killed all manner of creature on the ranch just because I could.

One night I grabbed my flashlight and the air rifle and and headed off into the darkness to get some. Came upon a possum or some such critter. Put the light on it, it froze. Put the sights on it's head and it just stared at me. Tried to but couldn't pull the trigger. Then it clicked in my kid brain. What's the point?

Headed back to the house and took up the very enjoyable sport of shooting the hell out of stuff that wasn't alive with that gun. Long distance shots, busting bottles. Fun stuff.

Hunted dove in Imperial County with my Grandfather a couple of years after that. Hung it up. Couldn't see the point in that either. Was tempted over the years to blast something just because it was there. Feel bad about that.

I understand the food chain. Worked as a butcher and at a slaughterhouse for almost 15 years. I would like to think that if me or my family were hungry or in danger I could kill the shit out of something. Fortunately that time has not come.

But shooting something like an elephant or big cat just for giggles? I can't wrap my head around that.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
So if a farmer's field is being devastated by varmints and he solicits folks to come out and shoots them by the hundreds should he be prosecuted for solicitation for murder? Or maybe just go broke and lose the farm I guess.

Don't play games with me. I'm still waiting for a logical argument from you, and not this kind of obtuse horse shit.

So I thought I would follow in Waynes footsteps and go Elephant hunting. In Namibia, its $45K for a 10 day hunt. Air fare (economy class) was $1200.00. Which will get you as far as Jo-Burg, anyway. And you would need some extra cash for souvenir T-Shirts, beer and stuff. So $47K should get you a trip.
Looks like I have exceeded my budget. Glad Wayne got to go, though. He probably got one those NRA discounts you hear about.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
So I thought I would follow in Waynes footsteps and go Elephant hunting. In Namibia, its $45K for a 10 day hunt. Air fare (economy class) was $1200.00. Which will get you as far as Jo-Burg, anyway. And you would need some extra cash for souvenir T-Shirts, beer and stuff. So $47K should get you a trip.
Looks like I have exceeded my budget. Glad Wayne got to go, though. He probably got one those NRA discounts you hear about.

Fighting the good fight for gun rights with the memberships money. All the way from Africa. What a peach

Farmers will have to do this or use poison or their corps will fail in a lot case's It is a reality.

It is one case and there are many others where animals will need to be killed. You can talk about farming, food production, logging, mining, construction, road building and a plethora of other human activities.

They can try to stop everything to save the pandas and the whales. But life will go on.

Pandas and whales? OK, now you're going to piss me off. Not only do you have no ground to stand on, but you're also going to reduce my position to the equivalent of being some blubbering tree hugger? Do yourself a favor and be quiet.

quote:

Originally posted by justjoe:
I don't know about elephant meat being distributed to the poor-- I never saw anything like that happen. My guess I that by the time the trophy hunter has decided on exactly what he wants to take home-- the feet for umbrella stands and waste baskets, the tusks, how much hide to strip, and so on-- the carcass roasting in the sun will be food for jackels and vultures only.

I know a guy who went on his once in a lifetime hunt some years back in Africa, and all the meat goes to the locals. I don't think he even had the option to keep any of the meat himself. He had the option of having the horns/hides processed by the locals and shipped back (that costs big money). That was it. If he didn't take them, the locals did and sold them to someone else. The carcasses don't rot in the sun and go to waste. Everything gets processed. Where he went it was all various types of antelope, buffalo, etc. nothing exotic like elephants.

quote:

Originally posted by JoseyWales2:

quote:

Originally posted by justjoe:
I don't know about elephant meat being distributed to the poor-- I never saw anything like that happen. My guess I that by the time the trophy hunter has decided on exactly what he wants to take home-- the feet for umbrella stands and waste baskets, the tusks, how much hide to strip, and so on-- the carcass roasting in the sun will be food for jackels and vultures only.

I know a guy who went on his once in a lifetime hunt some years back in Africa, and all the meat goes to the locals. I don't think he even had the option to keep any of the meat himself. He had the option of having the horns/hides processed by the locals and shipped back (that costs big money). That was it. If he didn't take them, the locals did and sold them to someone else. The carcasses don't rot in the sun and go to waste. Everything gets processed. Where he went it was all various types of antelope, buffalo, etc. nothing exotic like elephants.

Likewise, I know a guy who hunted in Africa. His hunt did not include elephants or cats, but he and his party did kill a buffalo, several antelope, and I am not sure what else. Maybe a zebra. He saw the meat from those animals get butchered and taken away for consumption by the local people. They may have served him an impala steak at the hunting lodge, but the animals were eaten.

{Off subject} It's good to see you back, C.

I have no problem with trophy hunting that is conducted in a manner consistent with conservation goals based on sound science.

Modern trophy hunting gets a bad rap, mostly from people that don't understand it. In Africa, for instance, there is not a single country that permits hunting of endangered game. None. In fact, in every African country I know of that permits hunting of, say, (some of) the The Big Five, those animals have actually rebounded despite controlled hunting. In large part because of the huge amounts of dollars that hunting brings to those countries that would be otherwise unavailable. Eco-tourism only provides a fraction of conservation funds in the whole of Africa that hunting does. The parts of Africa that have healthy populations of elephants and other big game are precisely the areas where trophy hunting is permitted and managed and which benefit from the financial influx of money it brings. The parts of Africa with depleted wildlife weren't depleted from lawful hunting. They were depleted by poaching, either for ridiculous notions that crocodile penises make Chinese peckers hard, or that consumption of Rhino horn powders lead to long life, or out of necessity because of incessant warfare has caused native people top kill and eat what they can. And those countries scarcely have any funds at all to have any sort of effective anti-poaching effort.

Be for it, be against it. Whatever. But there is no denying that lawful trophy hunting, by and large, has served to increase the numbers and health of the very animals that are hunted.

Uh huh. Little ol' conservationist, Wayne- truly, a friend o humanity, champion of the environment, an all around great guy.

...and oh yeah, second amendment something something...

You want to kirr erefant? Use enough MSG.

Also, if you can't get it done without a Guide, maybe just don't.

Having a local helper in some exotic spot do the leg work...

...that's not quite hunting, not to me. More like shopping.

Many Guides are basically Sherpas for tourists, doing all the work.

I'm not down with most of those sorts of "hunting" and trophy hunting.

Did you field dress it yourself, with your own knife? Did you do much other than park your ass in a spot someone else picked out for you and delivered you to and wait for a kickass animal to appear? These are key questions, imo, as to whether or not you were Hunting or "hunting". It's a fine line, sometimes.

quote:

Originally posted by JoseyWales2:

quote:

Originally posted by justjoe:
I don't know about elephant meat being distributed to the poor-- I never saw anything like that happen. My guess I that by the time the trophy hunter has decided on exactly what he wants to take home-- the feet for umbrella stands and waste baskets, the tusks, how much hide to strip, and so on-- the carcass roasting in the sun will be food for jackels and vultures only.

I know a guy who went on his once in a lifetime hunt some years back in Africa, and all the meat goes to the locals. I don't think he even had the option to keep any of the meat himself. He had the option of having the horns/hides processed by the locals and shipped back (that costs big money). That was it. If he didn't take them, the locals did and sold them to someone else. The carcasses don't rot in the sun and go to waste. Everything gets processed. Where he went it was all various types of antelope, buffalo, etc. nothing exotic like elephants.

Some years back a friend of mine on the local SWAT team went on an African safari. He paid $13,500 each for 3 elephant tags and shot them. He videoed his trip and showed the villagers carving up the meat--the harvest went very fast and nothing was wasted. The hunt was controlled by the government to insure that only selected animals were killed.

Elephants are awesome creatures, but there are legitimate reasons to hunt them, and as long as the carcass is not wasted I have no quarrel with it.

flashguy

Disney animation must be the reason people have become so disgusted with hunting. Too late for me, though. I grew up killing dinner and have no qualms with killing animals. The idea of speciesism is mental illness to me, but I don't waste a lot of time worrying about how other folks think.

quote:

Originally posted by bdylan:
Disney animation must be the reason people have become so disgusted with hunting.

Utterly ridiculous and you know it.

quote:

The idea of speciesism is mental illness to me, but I don't waste a lot of time worrying about how other folks think.

"speciesism"? What the Hell is that? And how is it a mental illness to believe that creatures shouldn't be killed simply because some people think killing is "fun"? I think anyone who kills for kicks should avoid accusing others of being bonkers. Glass houses and all that...

quote:

... because some people think killing is "fun"? I think anyone who kills for kicks should avoid accusing others of being bonkers. Glass houses and all that...

Man is a natural creature and the desire to interact with nature, to be part of it, to be a predator in his own right, as he has always been, is innate in his character. Suppressing it is the same as suppressing his desire for a beautiful woman. It can be done, but it's not natural. Man has hunted and kept trophies for as long as modern, and archaic man, has existed. Historical evidence proves it. Not a single known group of men that hunted has, at one time or another, not hunted beyond his need for food. Wall art and artifacts prove it. Indians drove buffalo off cliffs in excess of their need. Men are hunters by nature. If they aren't then it's through willful suppression. Just like men desire beautiful women in excess of simply what is needed to procreate, like they explore beyond the need for new lands, like they want freedom when they could exist while under the thumb of others. That man is a predator and desires to be part of the natural world he is part of is in him. Just like his innate belief in a higher power, and his desire to thank that higher power for the world he's been given and the animal he's taken. A "trophy" isn't a symbol reckless killing, it's a memorial of respect for the animal that's been taken.

"When the buffalo are gone, we will hunt mice, for we are hunters and we want our freedom." -- Chief Sitting Bull.

But there is another group that's suppressed their innate character of being a predator and manifested it into just being a killer, on the same level of poachers. And they're prevalent in the gun community. And I've seen them on this board. And there are a lot of them on the hypersnide forum. Ones that are "into" guns and fantasize about using their guns on zombies or an overbearing government, and have an uncontrollable need to draw some blood. What's the point of being a "sniper" if I can't kill something, it seems to go. So they decide to kill animals. And regard them as targets. Not the living creatures and gifts that they are to be respected and for which to be thankful. So they shoot them at ridiculous distances without regard for the ethics of doing so. And mostly for bragging rights. They refer to those living creatures as "'yotes" and "'chucks" and pop off at deer, elk and bear at ridiculous distances, far outside the animals' range of senses, without regard for the possible, and probable, consequences of doing so. These people are animal killers, not hunters, not predators. I have no use for these people.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:
That man is a predator and desires to be part of the natural world he is part of is in him.

No kidding. You wear clothes, don't you? You suppress your NATURAL urge to try to fuck every attractive woman you see, don't you? After all, running around buck naked with a hard-on is innate for Man, is it not? Forget about it being "in him". You want it to be "in her". Do you kill anyone you so desire? Tribalism is ingrained in we high-order social primates. Why not have at it?

Well, what's with all this suppression of these natural impulses? But, let's do kill animals without need. Yeah, we can still have that one. Yay.

quote:

Just like his innate belief in a higher power, and his desire to thank that higher power for the world he's been given and the animal he's taken. A "trophy" isn't a symbol reckless killing, it's a memorial of respect for the animal

Oh, please. You are fooling yourself, and no one else. It's flowery language, and I'm sorry to say meaningless. You need to drill down farther into the human brain to reach the region which creates/controls predatory behavior.

I think you've seen The Last of the Mohicans one too many times.

The Yosemite Sam song.
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