quote:

Originally posted by AllenInAR:
Just wondering what kind of warning the a/c crew had to the incoming missile(s).

I believe it was the giant flaming ball of fire heading towards them that tipped them off. It happened at night.

The RWR can be turned off and I believe in Ward Carroll's video he talks about it being turned off.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenInAR:
Kinda curious...the Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) on US a/c, that's passive, right? It's on all the time? I assume it has a "vocabulary" of ALL radar types, but does it only alert to threat radars?

Just wondering what kind of warning the a/c crew had to the incoming missile(s).

Serious incident but that X post was hilarious.

Friendly fire is a thing. All the tech advancements that have happened since Vietnam have lessened the incidences of fratricide but hasn't come close to completely eliminating it. War is a confusing cluster and draped in fog while run by humans; under these parameters accidents WILL happen.

The first Gulf War had several fratricide incidents. A Patriot launcher position misidentified a RAF Tornado as an inbound enemy missile and shot down the plane, killing the two crewmen. Another incident involved a pair of Idaho ANG A10 Warthogs, one piloted by a USAF Lt. Colonel--who apparently wasn't supposed to be in active combat in-theater--firing upon a British mechanized patrol, wounding several soldiers and killing one. There was also a deadly incident involving three Apache attack helicopters misidentifying ground vehicles and ultimately leading to one of the AH-64s firing on a Bradley and a M113 troop carrier, killing two servicemen and wounding others.

And then there's Afghanistan and the Pat Tillman friendly fire debacle. Bad orders are given and after the smoke clears it's the grunts who take the blame while the commanders and decision makers are ducking for cover and pointing their fingers at subordinates.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenInAR:
Serious incident but that X post was hilarious.

I totally agree on both points. I think pilots are hilarious, but when your every day job is what they do you have to be able to take a joke.

My hat is off to those guys who ride those rockets and then do it again in the morning; and a sincere thank you to all of them and the ones who might be reading.

(and I'd say Merry Christmas but I missed it by a minute, so I won't. Season's Greetings)

quote:

Originally posted by monoblok:
Friendly fire is a thing. All the tech advancements that have happened since Vietnam have lessened the incidences of fratricide but hasn't come close to completely eliminating it. War is a confusing cluster and draped in fog while run by humans; under these parameters accidents WILL happen.

The first Gulf War had several fratricide incidents. A Patriot launcher position misidentified a RAF Tornado as an inbound enemy missile and shot down the plane, killing the two crewmen. Another incident involved a pair of Idaho ANG A10 Warthogs, one piloted by a USAF Lt. Colonel--who apparently wasn't supposed to be in active combat in-theater--firing upon a British mechanized patrol, wounding several soldiers and killing one. There was also a deadly incident involving three Apache attack helicopters misidentifying ground vehicles and ultimately leading to one of the AH-64s firing on a Bradley and a M113 troop carrier, killing two servicemen and wounding others.

And then there's Afghanistan and the Pat Tillman friendly fire debacle. Bad orders are given and after the smoke clears it's the grunts who take the blame while the commanders and decision makers are ducking for cover and pointing their fingers at subordinates.

GW1 - Gulf War. 26 February 1991: Six British soldiers of the 3rd Battalion, Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, and ten members of the attached Company of Queen's Own Highlanders were killed and further three injured after their [clearly marked with flags] Warrior armoured vehicles were hit by Maverick missiles fired by two U.S. A-10 ground attack aircraft.

By my count that's sixteen.

And this - 'Another incident involved a pair of Idaho ANG A10 Warthogs, one piloted by a USAF Lt. Colonel--who apparently wasn't supposed to be in active combat in-theater--firing upon a British mechanized patrol, wounding several soldiers and killing one.' took place in GW2 - the dead soldier was L/Cpl Mattie Hull.

Friendly fire, particular involving air-to-ground situations, has always been fraught with complications and problems from the outset. When it comes to brigade-sized and larger exercises with ground & air forces, particularly at the edge of the battlefield, blue-on-blue incidents are identified almost regularly; fortunately these EX are using lasers instead of live-munitions. These friendly-on-friendly incidents shouldn't occur given the number of exercise that lead up to real world ops, but the pace, tempo and ferocity of modern war unfortunately shows they do continue. Cavalry units, Scouts, arty observers, reconnaissance and special operations all are under the constant possibilities of confusion and a deconfliction complication the further into the lines they go. Modern electronic counter-air and spoofing only adds to the complexity of two separate units trying to work with or, avoid each other.

Technology has lessoned these points of friction quite a bit however, with this incident, we're talking about three planes that were within its strike group, positioning themselves to land and was engaged by an escort, which was supposed oversee all air defenses for the group. There's not many of these cruisers left, by my count there's only nine left with four more to decom next year, they've been rode hard and many had various maintenance deferred. All the remaining ships have received modern systems upgrades, what remains to be seen if this was an individual/training issue or, technology issue.

http://archive.gao.gov/t2pbat5/149432.pdf

Report regarding Desert Storm fratricide incident that killed an acquaintance of mine from my battalion.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenInAR:
http://archive.gao.gov/t2pbat5/149432.pdf

Report regarding Desert Storm fratricide incident that killed an acquaintance of mine from my battalion.

I was in A 1-4 on their left flank but far enough away not to see it. I remember when it happened though.

I casually had met (previously) the av battalion commander who was relieved. The co-pilot gunner in the Apache wasn’t supposes to be in flight operations at that time but wanted to go out for a kill/combat experience. The battalion co let him and this part of the reason he was relieved. Not all details make it in reports.

quote:

Originally posted by Augen:

I casually had met (previously) the av battalion commander who was relieved. The co-pilot gunner in the Apache wasn’t supposes to be in flight operations at that time but wanted to go out for a kill/combat experience. The battalion co let him and this part of the reason he was relieved. Not all details make it in reports.

That may be a different incident than 'mine'. The 1-1 AVN Bn Commander decided (against SOP, IIRC) to go out with this flight as a gunner/copilot. He got his grids mixed up, misidentified a Bradley and 113, and shot them both.

If you want to nerd-out a bit more...

quote:

Originally posted by uvahawk:
Does anyone know, or remember, when the last friendly fire incident occurred? My guess is possibly the Vietnam War. I am interested in the historical perspective.

Gulf War, C 3/69 Armor misidentified the Bradleys from C 3/15 Infantry and shot three Bradleys killing two and wounding many. Until a week before I'd been assigned to one of those Bradleys but moved to A 3/15 just before the ground war started. It was a real clusterfuck.

https://gulflink.health.mil/du_ii/du_ii_tabh.htm

Details of all the Gulf War incidents

quote:

Originally posted by 1gkek:
https://gulflink.health.mil/du_ii/du_ii_tabh.htm

Details of all the Gulf War incidents

'All the Gulf War incidents' where US forces shot up their own comrades in arms, but nothing about all the Brits they killed.

Shame, that.

Red Sea Attacks Are Testing Combat Information Centers Aboard U.S. Navy Warships Like Never Before

The chaotic, high-risk nature of the grinding Red Sea fight was starkly illustrated when a Navy cruiser shot down a friendly Super Hornet last month.

by Geoff Ziezulewicz
Posted Jan 6, 2025

The Combat Information Center (CIC) is the nerve center and tactical brain of a U.S. Navy surface combatant. These high-tech floating command centers and their watchstanders have been put to the test over the last year, unlike any other time in history, as missile and drone barrages from Houthi rebels in Yemen have plagued the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden. With this in mind, TWZ spoke with multiple surface warfare officers (SWOs) about the realities sailors face when fighting their ship from within the CIC, including what factors come into play, what mistakes can arise during tense, time sensitive engagements, and the effects of being on patrol in a free-fire zone for months on end.

Cocooned within the ship, amongst the dimly lit CIC packed with glowing screens, are between 10 and 20 sailors on watch at any given time. Led by a tactical action officer (TAO), they track all threats and movements in the region around the ship. A CIC’s air warfare watchstanders might flag an inbound Houthi missile and approve firing orders to other ship combat systems, while others are scanning the rest of the sky, correlating electronic warfare signals, tracking other surface vessels and watching out for submarines. CICs also keep in constant communication with other Navy vessels and aircraft in the area via various datalink systems, sharing sensor data and coordinating actions. The CIC works closely with the bridge to best move the ship to its most survivable or advantageous position at any given time as well...

Complete article:

https://www.twz.com/news-featu...ps-like-never-before

Let me add a little to those since I was in theater and a military aviator.

Please excuse if some of the sharp details are missing.

You have a machine inside the aircraft that allows you to enter a secret code, that is interrogated by radar. If you have the secret code, no problem, most of the time. It is alarming when you get painted. It took me several seconds of WTF, to get it. If you are in the field you will have the secret numbers for that day, but as your time is spent, the numbers expire and you don't have a secure method to get the new ones, so you end up flying with expired, sometimes by weeks, numbers. The best thing to do is to try to fly outside the limits of what is painting you. That is all I will say about that.

Friendly fire will always happen. Especially during close air support missions.

quote:

Originally posted by alreadydead:
You have a machine inside the aircraft that allows you to enter a secret code, that is interrogated by radar. If you have the secret code, no problem, most of the time. It is alarming when you get painted. It took me several seconds of WTF, to get it. If you are in the field you will have the secret numbers for that day, but as your time is spent, the numbers expire and you don't have a secure method to get the new ones, so you end up flying with expired, sometimes by weeks, numbers. The best thing to do is to try to fly outside the limits of what is painting you. That is all I will say about that.

If their Mode 5 is not transmitting correctly then yes, however both aircraft were fired upon...what's the chance that both aircraft hadn't updated their codes after Zulu?