Yes

Nope.

quote:

Originally posted by Palooka84:
Yes

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:
Nope.

And that's the way it is; Wednesday, May 10, 2017

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
That's the point. Morality was driven by religion. People wouldn't adhere to an set of moral precepts for the sake of public civility, they had to be threatened with eternal damnation in order to get them to do it.

Of course we understand a lot more about how things work in the universe now. We're far from understanding everything, or even a small fraction of everything. But we do understand independently much more about things where the major religions attempted to establish a monopoly of understanding, and those religions have been shown to be wrong. This has much of the population questioning the validity of those religions themselves. And the more their validity is questioned, the more the morality those religions imposed, breaks down.

So if people won't believe that god (whoever that might be) demands they adhere to moral code, how do you keep civilization from breaking down?

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Many conclude that religion in some form is essential to motivate humans to some form of morality. You'll be "good" if you risk going to hell.

That may be a misunderstanding of people of faith.

The threat of hell doesn't really motivate the believers I know. Gratitude may have more to do with why many people of faith act the way they do.

Of course, different religions may motivate adherents in a variety of ways.

quote:

I just have days where I picture Jesus/God rubbing the sides of his head sighing as he looks down on us thinking "you dumb shits".

I am not a Biblical scholar, but I study the Bible because to NOT is to be woefully ignorant of what it teaches and reveals.

The Book of Romans, otherwise known as Paul's Letter to the Romans is the clearest example of what it means to be a Christian. He describes man's sinful nature due to our rebellion against God. He then explains how we are saved by the blood of Jesus.

And it is ONLY through accepting Christ's life, death and resurrection that we are granted salvation. This is Grace. There is nothing we can do, buy, earn or work that will get us into Heaven.

But that's where many sects of Christianity stray. My Bible memory verse is Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." (NIV)

Many religions require sacrifice, atonement, tithing, missions and so on. While the intent of some of these may be admirable, they are NOT tenets of Christianity.

I've worked with Buddhists, Hindus, Islamists, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Catholics and so on. The Hindu religion consists of some 33 MILLION gods. Buddhism is a works-based faith, based on the idea of achieving godhood through living a holy life. Most of the people I know who profess to be one religion or another are in truth, not. Most "Christians" are what I call "checklist Christians:" I'll go to church on Sunday and check the box off my list.

Yet all the horrors propagated by those in the name of religion, the number pales in comparison to the sheer evil perpetrated by the "godless" types.

No, I think we would be worse off without religion.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
That's the point. Morality was driven by religion. People wouldn't adhere to an set of moral precepts for the sake of public civility, they had to be threatened with eternal damnation in order to get them to do it.

I don't see it that way at all.

My faith does not keep me in line with threats of hell.

It gives me a path to heaven. I respectfully think you are looking at it wrong.

For God so LOVED the world...

-----------------------------------------

Why eliminate religion (the following of one's faith)? Why not just eliminate hate, greed and jealousy?

quote:

Originally posted by Tubetone:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Many conclude that religion in some form is essential to motivate humans to some form of morality. You'll be "good" if you risk going to hell.

That may be a misunderstanding of people of faith.

The threat of hell doesn't really motivate the believers I know. Gratitude may have more to do with why many people of faith act the way they do.

Of course, different religions may motivate adherents in a variety of ways.

That may be true to a certain extent now, but has not always been thus, over the 2,000 years of Christianity as it has from time to time existed, been practiced, and evolved.

Some of my ancestors were itinerant preachers, going around preaching hell fire and brimstones, I imagine, that good old time religion. I heard some stemwinders in my youth, not from long ago ancestors but from their successors.

Two sides of the same coin. Behave how the religion dictates and be rewarded. Don't, and be punished.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
That's the point. Morality was driven by religion. People wouldn't adhere to an set of moral precepts for the sake of public civility, they had to be threatened with eternal damnation in order to get them to do it.

I don't see it that way at all.

My faith does not keep me in line with threats of hell.

It gives me a path to heaven. I respectfully think you are looking at it wrong.

For God so LOVED the world...

-----------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
You're bringing politics into this thread?

Apologies, Parabellum. Politics was not my intent although I see that the politics of Global warming does eclipse the point that those who are true believers treat it as a religion. There are many, even published, parallels. PITA people are the same as well as Feminists/FEMEN, so called social justice or more benign, fly fishing, and sports team loyalties. My intent was to illustrate how human nature is to seek faithful enthusiasms and in doing so, the more he invests himself, the more enthusiastic he becomes. Global warming was not a good choice for my illustration. Regardless of my intent, it did introduce politics into a clearly non political thread. That's bad form, I know. I'll be more careful.

I would like to note that not all enthusiasms are equal in value to humanity. I think moral religious teaching has the highest value of them all.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

My question is, would the world be a better place sans religion? We have killed ALOT of people in the name of our chosen deity (whom I believe to be shaking his or her head at thinking we are idjits).

Who is this We?
I have killed no one.

For whom are you responsible?

"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son.
The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."
- Ezekiel 18:20

This passage teaches the principle of individual responsibility in salvation. Each person is accountable before God for His own life.

Oh, I've killed a few, or assisted materially in same. And for a lot more pragmatic reasons than the name of a diety. And I think they deserved it, and I believe the Diety in whom I believe would approve. A trusted friend once told me "If you have no enemies, you have no principles" and I sincerely believe that. So the presence of absence of "religion" in isolated context does not improve or worsen the human condition, but the principles behind whatever faith or belief, or absence of, either raise men from death, chaos and destruction, or promote it, in the least and greatest of things. And we have seen this played out on the world stage again and again, centuries before and in living memory, even with our breakfast cereal this morning. I like to believe I have chosen wisely; I expect some day to find out.

Tubetone

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by Tubetone:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Many conclude that religion in some form is essential to motivate humans to some form of morality. You'll be "good" if you risk going to hell.

That may be a misunderstanding of people of faith.

The threat of hell doesn't really motivate the believers I know. Gratitude may have more to do with why many people of faith act the way they do.

Of course, different religions may motivate adherents in a variety of ways.

That may be true to a certain extent now, but has not always been thus, over the 2,000 years of Christianity as it has from time to time existed, been practiced, and evolved.

Some of my ancestors were itinerant preachers, going around preaching hell fire and brimstones, I imagine, that good old time religion. I heard some stemwinders in my youth, not from long ago ancestors but from their successors.

I am not commenting on conversion. Fire and Brimstone is often discussed in salvation messages in the Christian tradition.

BUT . . . what motivates actions in life after conversion is not usually born of a fear of going to hell. Christian life, unless in a non-mainstream "good works" sect, emerges from gratefulness, humility and a sense of obligation to give to others in light of what was given to a recipient of grace - at least in my experience.

How does it figure in that Jesus Himself spoke more of Hell than Heaven?

quote:

Originally posted by Tubetone:
Tubetone

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by Tubetone:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Many conclude that religion in some form is essential to motivate humans to some form of morality. You'll be "good" if you risk going to hell.

That may be a misunderstanding of people of faith.

The threat of hell doesn't really motivate the believers I know. Gratitude may have more to do with why many people of faith act the way they do.

Of course, different religions may motivate adherents in a variety of ways.

That may be true to a certain extent now, but has not always been thus, over the 2,000 years of Christianity as it has from time to time existed, been practiced, and evolved.

Some of my ancestors were itinerant preachers, going around preaching hell fire and brimstones, I imagine, that good old time religion. I heard some stemwinders in my youth, not from long ago ancestors but from their successors.

I am not commenting on conversion. Fire and Brimstone is often discussed in salvation messages in the Christian tradition.

BUT . . . what motivates actions in life after conversion is not usually born of a fear of going to hell. Christian life, unless in a non-mainstream "good works" sect, emerges from gratefulness, humility and a sense of obligation to give to others in light of what was given to a recipient of grace - at least in my experience.

Nor am I.

You have to be reminded to stay "converted" in some quarters, apparently.

The best people that I have known and the worst people that I have known were very religious. Religion can be a vehicle for good but it also is all too often a vehicle for evil. I believe that religion is not the problem it is the people that exploit it for their evil purpose.

No, I do not think the world would be better without religion.

Variants of this notwithstanding, the point remains --

“Without God all things are permitted.” -- Dostoyevsky

I'll add --

"I don't know if God exists but I do know I am not God." -- David Horowitz

I am Catholic. I go to church at least once a week. I participate in the sacraments regularly.

I've found that so often people who do not practice religion speak of it as if they are an authority. They seem to think it's something you can read in a book or study the history of and then understand faith and what it is to practice. Or even more amusingly, they'll say I was raised religious...and thus we are to believe them to be an absolute authority.

I used to fight these fights but with age have learned not to.

Simply put, if one doesn't practice religion, really practice it, they don't know the first thing about it. Unfortunately, these people often speak authoritatively on the subject.

Religion can't be studied and thus understood. It must be lived, period.

Christ told us what to do. Pretending he didn't would not make the world a better place at all.

quote:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them . . . .

It would seem the Founders looked to a "higher source" for guidance on moral principles.

Probably.