quote:

My question is, would the world be a better place sans religion? We have killed ALOT of people in the name of our chosen deity (whom I believe to be shaking his or her head at thinking we are idjits).

Who is this We?
I have killed no one.

For whom are you responsible?

"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son.
The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."
- Ezekiel 18:20

This passage teaches the principle of individual responsibility in salvation. Each person is accountable before God for His own life.

Like it or not, believe it or not, liberty and prosperity are directly related to morality. Morality is disseminated through religion. As is the method of evil, there is counterfeit religion which preaches destruction, captivity and desolation which result from false principles. Without religion to teach a common standard, mankind would eventually decay into base animalistic selfish behavior. That is where the real destruction awaits. Need an example? Look at the thug culture.

quote:

Originally posted by Crom:
No need to speculate; we have social experiments on this, conducted for the first time in human history, just within the last century.
Maoist China, Stalinist Russia, and Cambodia under Pol Pot were all officially communist and officially atheist. Religion was heavily suppressed and practitioners persecuted and even executed.
The result was three genocides that make the Nazi-led holocaust "small" by comparison.

The idea that religion causes wars and killing is entirely a myth. Religions have all attempted to CURB mankind's baser instincts, but they have done so IMPERFECTLY. Hence, wars and killings still occur, even under the most peace-promoting of religions.

But in the absence of religion, we seem to get a very rapid slide into abject barbarism, and the perpetrators can "rationalize" why they are doing it: to bring about a Godless, communist Utopia.

This is why the much-touted "reason" is not a valid basis for an ethic or morality: a human mind can "rationalize" anything.

In all the cases mentioned here, there was religion.
Not based on what we may think of as religion, but based on a leaders personality, promoted and required by the government.

There is a certain percentage of dogs that want to bite and a certain percentage of humans that want to be assholes. A small percentage use religion as justification (ISIS), for others (probably most) religion or the lasting historical influences of it temper their base instincts.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
No.

Had your answer at the first post.

Yup.

quote:

Originally posted by braillediver:
Imagine there's no heaven
/snip

Swell, John Lennon and his ignorant vision of utopia.

Oh, are we posting song lyrics as some sort of profound statement?

OK, here's mine


You got your million bucks
You got your flashy sports car
You got your trophy girls
Man you think you're a star

You got your teeth bleached
You like to play the rich game
Yeah you think you're a cowboy
The new Jesse James
But I could kick your ass
I could jack your jaw
Put you flat in the dirt boy
Yeah I'd have a ball
So go ahead and act tough
Like your John Wayne's son
But things can change fast
I can kick your ass

Tried to steal my girl
Better bring your big friends
Another one or two
Cause your gonna need them
You're a little to small
To be calling me names
I'm 'bout to knock that smirky little grin
Right off of your face

I can kick your ass
I could jack your jaw
Put you flat in the dirt boy
Yeah I'd have a ball
So go ahead and act tough
Like your John Wayne's son
But things can change fast
I can kick your ass

.. Oh how about it boy..

Yeahh
I could kick your ass
I could jack your jaw
Put you flat in the dirt boy
Hell I'd have a ball
So go ahead and act tough
Like your John Wayne's son
But things can change fast
I could kick your ass

quote:

Originally posted by roberth:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
No.

Had your answer at the first post.

Yup.

quote:

Originally posted by braillediver:
Imagine there's no heaven
/snip

Swell, John Lennon and his ignorant vision of utopia.

Here's Ben Shapiro's take on Imagine: (He doesn't like it very much. )



Link to original video: https://youtu.be/ZGuYEDEkIPY

I think it's the single greatest waste of efforts and potential the world/humanity has ever known and continues to struggle with, and a clear net-negative in the broad sense.

Pondering the big questions is one thing, but the degree to which it has been taken is something else entirely, and we'd be better off without the vast majority of that stuff.

Most believers will never agree, of course. Such is life. But I rest well knowing there are fewer and fewer believers each day, which is a clear sign of progress to me and many.

One day we'll shake off these superstitions. I hope I live to see it, but doubt I will.

Religion is inevitable:

Humanity --> War --> foxholes --> religion.

quote:

Originally posted by LDD:
Religion is inevitable:

Humanity --> War --> foxholes --> religion.

Yes. For anyone truly interested in the subject of Man's relation to/creation of God, read Karen Armstrong's A History of God

Speaking as an atheist, I'm just not seeing that it is possible any time soon. Even if you waved a magic wand and all theology disappeared, people would find other things to take to that level.

An example would be state religions like North Korea, China, etc. Most people need, for some reason, to believe in something to the point that it becomes religion. There are many gangs like that, as well. Many humans need to believe in anything other than themselves for some reason.

While I think it would be nice for all of it to fade away into history, I'm not convinced it would make anything better. People will find other reasons to squabble.

If it wasn't religion, it would be something else.

quote:

Originally posted by ulsterman:
If it wasn't religion, it would be something else.

...which would then, by default, become one's religion.

I'm in the midst of reading "The Complete Story of Civilization" by Will and Ariel Durant. 11 volumes, ~12,000 pages.

Humankind has worshiped a bewildering variety of gods with a bewildering variety of characteristics, traits, relationships, shapes, locations, from sun gods, moon gods, in the more than 6,000 year of history we have some record about. Philosphers have mulled and argued over these matters over the milleniums.

Even within a particular religious group, there is no consensus, Sunni, Shia, Orthodox, Reformed, Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, Druids, Buddhists and more besides.

Many conclude that religion in some form is essential to motivate humans to some form of morality. You'll be "good" if you risk going to hell.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by ulsterman:
If it wasn't religion, it would be something else.

...which would then, by default, become one's religion.

The wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round.

Religious participation must be voluntary if it is to have any meaning. Our relationship with God is an individual relationship. Therefore, the biggest problems with religion are in subjugation. It cannot be spread by the sword.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:Humankind has worshiped a bewildering variety of gods with a bewildering variety of characteristics, traits, relationships, shapes, locations, from sun gods, moon gods, in the more than 6,000 year of history we have some record about.

Every single one of those believers was certain they were correct, had the right beliefs, read the correct book and practiced the best rituals.

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:Humankind has worshiped a bewildering variety of gods with a bewildering variety of characteristics, traits, relationships, shapes, locations, from sun gods, moon gods, in the more than 6,000 year of history we have some record about.

Every single one of those believers was certain they were correct, had the right beliefs, read the correct book and practiced the best rituals.

What does that have to do with the man's point? If you want to ridicule religion, you don't have to quote anyone in this thread to do it. Just speak your piece.

Either you have an agenda, or you missed JALLEN's point entirely.

^^^
I don't think I missed his point.

Humans have always been drawn to religion as a means of wrapping their heads around things we don't (and never will) understand. The specifics change according to the time period and culture involved. I'm not ridiculing religion, but think it's over the top when any one group claims to have the correct answers to questions that are beyond human understanding.

This debate between Sam Harris debate and Rabbi David Wolpe delves into the topic. Harris is the guy who's criticism of Islam set off Ben Affleck to accuse him of being "gross and racist" on Bill Maher's show a year or so ago. There's tons of his stuff on youtube. I find his arguments to be very solid on the topic of religion, and Islam in particular.