Chongo nailed it. I'm not going to tell any Officer when to shoot or not shoot but that guy should have been shot the minute he was ordered to drop the knife, refused and started advancing. I know I would have. But don't tell me the thought of knowing that if they shoot and kill him they will be in a world of hurt didn't influence their decision to not shoot.. Not from the guy with the knife but the community, the department, the press etc. Some will even push for their arrest. Look at the most recent CPD shooting for proof of that. CPD officers confront a guy who can clearly be seen trying to draw his gun when they shoot and kill him. First the outcry was that he was shot in the back, that he had no gun. When that lie was exposed with the release of the body cam video all of a sudden the conversation in the press switched to what did the Police say to him to cause him to go for his gun. Look at Minneapolis for more proof. In the Bevlin shooting it was the same thing. He was shot in the back, never had a gun, never shot at the Police yet the video showed that to be a lie. A normal person would think that would end the conversation but it didn't. It then focused on the "bad language" the coppers used prior to shooting him,lol. So while I agree this was a bad shoot, let's ask ourselves why they waited so long to shoot. Had they shot earlier we wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead we would be talking about the headline that boldly claimed how the Police gunned down a man who wanted to surrender.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bulldog7972,

Good lord. Officers should definitely be held accountable for a true innocent life lost this time.

I keep thinking of this scene from Speed.

quote:

Originally posted by P226RN:
Good lord. Officers should definitely be held accountable for a true innocent life lost this time.

No, they did the best they could with mediocre or poor training. Their intentions were good, but were hamstrung by what Chongosurette stated. The cop on the left should have dumped his entire mag as fast as possible, and the other two cops should have held their fire. But in the stress of the situation, things went sour.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: c1steve,

In situations like this, it seems that as soon as one officer fires his weapon, it turns into a free-for-all.

quote:

Originally posted by bob ramberg:
In situations like this, it seems that as soon as one officer fires his weapon, it turns into a free-for-all.

Is there something in their training that causes a pack mentality or is it that some guys just want to claim to have been in a gun fight?

This was brought up in the post that had the video of the cop shooting through his windshield. Pooky was already on the ground being ventilated by several other cops when the guy in the car roared up and started shooting through his own car. Looked unnecessarily risky.

If you don't have a clear shot, you don't take it. Seems pretty basic to me.

quote:

Originally posted by highroundcount:

quote:

Originally posted by bob ramberg:
In situations like this, it seems that as soon as one officer fires his weapon, it turns into a free-for-all.

Is there something in their training that causes a pack mentality or is it that some guys just want to claim to have been in a gun fight?

This was brought up in the post that had the video of the cop shooting through his windshield. Pooky was already on the ground being ventilated by several other cops when the guy in the car roared up and started shooting through his own car. Looked unnecessarily risky.

Neither, it tends to happen under high stress. Tunnel vision, start shooting when everyone else is. Takes discipline and prior stress inoculation experience to fight the subconscious urge to shoot when the shooting starts.

quote:

Originally posted by c1steve:

quote:

Originally posted by P226RN:
Good lord. Officers should definitely be held accountable for a true innocent life lost this time.

No, they did the best they could with mediocre or poor training. Their intentions were good, but were hamstrung by what Chongosurette stated. The cop on the left should have dumped his entire mag as fast as possible, and the other two cops should have held their fire. But in the stress of the situation, things went sour.

They should be held to the same accountability that any other private citizen would be.

quote:

Originally posted by Strambo:

quote:

Originally posted by highroundcount:

quote:

Originally posted by bob ramberg:
In situations like this, it seems that as soon as one officer fires his weapon, it turns into a free-for-all.

Is there something in their training that causes a pack mentality or is it that some guys just want to claim to have been in a gun fight?

This was brought up in the post that had the video of the cop shooting through his windshield. Pooky was already on the ground being ventilated by several other cops when the guy in the car roared up and started shooting through his own car. Looked unnecessarily risky.

Neither, it tends to happen under high stress. Tunnel vision, start shooting when everyone else is. Takes discipline and prior stress inoculation experience to fight the subconscious urge to shoot when the shooting starts.

Interesting. I see your point.

lots of fail here. That was a perfectly doable shot by probably any of the on scene officers seen in the video. They should have had the skill. Whether they did or not I don’t know.

It was also an example of a desperate need for communication when there wasn’t much time to do it. That’s a terribly hard set of circumstances. 2 seconds of planning on the fly and 1 person taking charge would have changed that entire outcome.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: thumperfbc,

A lot gets made of "They fired XXX number of rounds! Why did YYY cops need to fire THAT MANY ROUNDS???" in LE shootings.

Put yourself in those shoes for a second:
1. You have a legal basis for deadly force. So do, say, five other officers also on the scene.
2. You have no idea how many of those five are firing. You have other shit on your plate.
3. You have no idea how many are actually hitting what they're shooting at. Actually, you have no immediate idea of whether YOU'RE hitting the threat.
4. You have no idea if those hits-- yours or others-- are actually stopping the threat. Some targets are "chemically" hard or are literally armored. Target areas on a body that actually are "quick" stops with a handgun are very small. So you continue to apply force until it's apparent that the threat is actually down.
Shots rack up pretty quickly. When I see "40 rounds fired!" my usual thought is "X officers on scene, and ONLY 40?"

There are things that are messed up about this incident, but IMO the number of rounds isn't it.

You're absolutely right. They should have used 40mm.

Maybe napalm the area as well.

quote:

Originally posted by 4ftty4:
...or SWAT operators,

Operators?

Really?



GMAFB

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

quote:

Originally posted by 4ftty4:
...or SWAT operators,

Operators?

Really?



GMAFB

Yeah, really. It was tongue in cheek if you read it in the context of the original paragraph. The guys involved in this incident were most likely street cops with the median amount of training, ie not high speed, or intensely specially trained.

But if you want to pull out the tired old “cops are civilians just like me” argument and bitch about calling SWAT guys “Operators” LAPD SWAT and LASO SEB aren’t the ones to call out.

They are two of the most well regarded, highly trained and capable SWAT teams in the country and probably the world. SEB regularly trains, and trains with the west coast SEAL teams, as well as other military units and international SWAT teams.

These guys are the definition of “Operators” and routinely wipe the floor with those who choose to test them.

quote:

Originally posted by c1steve:

No, they did the best they could with mediocre or poor training. Their intentions were good, but were hamstrung by what Chongosurette stated. The cop on the left should have dumped his entire mag as fast as possible, and the other two cops should have held their fire. But in the stress of the situation, things went sour.

That does NOT absolve them of accountability.

The one that mag dumped the woman should be held liable for her death, just like any one of us filthy non law enforcement would be.

There is more outrage over a dog getting shot than over this INNOCENT woman being killed by the people who are supposed to saving her.

quote:

Originally posted by 4ftty4:

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

quote:

Originally posted by 4ftty4:
...or SWAT operators,

Operators?

Really?



GMAFB

Yeah, really. It was tongue in cheek if you read it in the context of the original paragraph. The guys involved in this incident were most likely street cops with the median amount of training, ie not high speed, or intensely specially trained.

But if you want to pull out the tired old “cops are civilians just like me” argument and bitch about calling SWAT guys “Operators” LAPD SWAT and LASO SEB aren’t the ones to call out.

They are two of the most well regarded, highly trained and capable SWAT teams in the country and probably the world. SEB regularly trains, and trains with the west coast SEAL teams, as well as other military units and international SWAT teams.

These guys are the definition of “Operators” and routinely wipe the floor with those who choose to test them.

No Police Officer should be referred to as an "operator" by either himself or anyone else. They are Police Officers.

quote:

Originally posted by Mars

There is more outrage over a dog getting shot than over this INNOCENT woman being killed by the people who are supposed to saving her.

Truth.

Not a cop. It is pretty easy to MMQB that only the officer with the clear shot should have fired. Still, I’ve got to imagine that for the other officers it would have been very difficult to stand there and watch the woman’s throat being cut and not feel like they “had to do something.” Sure, holding fire and counting on someone else to have the shot, take the ahot, and nail it was the right thing to do. It is really easy to see that now. Glad I wasn’t in their position.

Damned if they do. Damned if they don't. And double damned if it goes badly.