If the initial response were beanbag rounds here where other regions would have started with more lethal repsonses then it seems politics is influencing initial responses which affect the final outcomes.

quote:

Originally posted by Fenris:

quote:

Originally posted by Graniteguy:
Unfortunate situation for all involved. And - another reason why LEO's should not be second guessed for shooting someone armed with a knife early at the onset of an altercation.

Amen.

And amen +. Cut point is 17 feet for most reaction times to stop someone with an edged weapon before they are inside of your reach and kill you. That guy should have been dead from the first hello. Call for beanbag notwithstanding, but armchair quarterbacking is easy from the safe distance of time...

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
The shot was officer #1s to take and it appears he did it - the cheerleading squad fucked it all up by shooting because others be shooting.

This for sure. View one had clear head shot at reasonably close range. Officer 2 & 3 should have held fire as there was no clear shot on perp. Once officer one takes a shot things get way to unpredictable to shoot again.

Yeah it's like they do the cop thing when they hear shots, they start shooting because someone else is shooting, so they need to start shooting too.

A. Nobody is claiming that any of those cops WANTED to kill the hostage.

B. Dirtbag perp NEEDED to get shot, as he was in the process of murdering hostage.

C. Cops made a bad shoot. Not saying they are bad people; they just made a series of bad decisions and errors in judgment, and an innocent person is dead because of their mistakes.

D. Of COURSE we are 'armchair quarterbacking.' It's what we do in all these cases.

E. Until such evidence arises that might excuse the actions of the cops, the simple fact remains that they killed an innocent bystander, violating the trust the community has placed in them (you know, the "Protect" part of "Protect and Serve").

F. I am NOT saying I would have done better than the cops in this situation. However, if I ever shoot and kill an innocent bystander, I will be held to the same level of scrutiny and criticism as the cops in this case are now.

1. Nature says, some things will kill you without any warning.

2. Nature is a cold bitch.

3. We need to stop fighting nature.


The Political Correct BS has brought about more deaths than should have ever occurred.

Time to hit the reset.

Bad people purposefully doing bad things that are of grave danger to others, (forcible felony stuff) need to be immediately dismissed with prejudice.

It will serve a deterrent to some, and eliminate recidivism in the remainder.

If a person wanting to pursue LE, know and accept if going in, or find another line of work.


MMQB.
As soon as he advanced toward the police with the knife and chair, he should have been terminated.

He was not coming to shake hands and introduce himself.

It's a tragedy that these guys will carry this crap the rest of their lives.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
The Political Correct BS has brought about more deaths than should have ever occurred.

Time to hit the reset.

Absolutely. This guy should never have been allowed to place hands on an innocent. He had a weapon he wouldn't drop, he was determined to hang onto it and was allowed to grab a bystander. He should have been dead already. DRT. Dead, right the fuck right there, right before he could put that knife to a woman's throat. I can't believe he wasn't already dead and we're having this conversation, but it's how it all panned out.

I'll go ahead and say I don't think those officers need more training. I think they need to find another job. For absolute sure, the three who lined up on the sidewalk in their best honor guard impression. The first guy? He was actually trying to get the thing done before the Stooges chimed in and fucked it all up.

This is a shitty situation. We are watching what was probably the most stressful, terrifying incident any of these officers had ever experienced. From the comfort of our screens.

In a perfect world, yeah, they shoot him once or twice with the beanbag gun, realize it’s not working, then two cops draw the bad guy’s attention while the third creates an angle away from the hostage and delivers a single headshot. For all the heroes here, that’s obvious. We could nail that shot all day.

LAPD SWAT is a full time unit that doesn’t work patrol. Probably no operators on this call. LAPD issues handguns and shotguns. I believe Officers can purchase their own rifles if they want. Who knows if these guys exercised that.

I don’t know LAPD’s training requirements. My agency requires us to qualify quarterly. The qualifications consist of 100 or so rounds of handgun and 10 shotgun rounds. Rifles are optional. Rifle shooters complete a 50 round qual twice a year. There is a significant number of my coworkers who only shoot their guns during those qualifications. And I stress that these are qualifications, not “training”. I’m willing to bet the percentage of LAPD guys who shoot infrequently is about the same.

So these cops, not gun fighters or SWAT operators, just street cops, walk into the shitstorm that is unfolding outside the homeless shelter. The guy who should probably still be in prison but was released by California’s ridiculous laws (AB 109, Prop 47, Prop. 57) is running around with a knife. They have their use of force training in the back of their minds, Graham Vs Conner, etc., as well as the theme for the last five years or so (de-escalate, de-escalate, de-escalate) rattling around in their heads.

They try to de-escalate and use the least amount of force possible, it doesn’t work. Bad guy starts cutting her throat. Cops address the threat and bad guy and hostage get lit up.

Shitty. Worst day of their careers. Probably their lives. Bad mix of mediocre training, poor shooting and a lousy situation.

Bitch all you want about what would have happened to a civilian. They’re not civilians. They’re cops. They get paid to show up and deal with the shit no one else wants to, and they get legal protection for it. They tried to fix the situation and failed. It’s fucking horrible, but not criminal.

LAPD will pay the hostage’s family and these guys will join Kyle Dinkheller as the law enforcement poster children for what not to do.


And by all means, if you want to experience it yourself, come join up.

I hear you 4f, but we need to expect better. Those guys earned the poster child for what not to do.

I understand it is easy to point fingers. But our cops are not just for dealing with hookers, local druggies, dealers and writing tickets. They have to know these things are around the corner and be ready and do better than these guys did. That is why they carry a gun. That was a disasterous outcome.

I feel bad for all involved, except the perp.

Btw, LAPD isn't paying anyone. The taxpayers are.

quote:

Originally posted by 4ftty4:
And by all means, if you want to experience it yourself, come join up.

That's cute, but seriously, this guy should have been dead before he had a chance to grab.

I mean, type more words, but it all comes back to that.

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Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by 4ftty4:
And by all means, if you want to experience it yourself, come join up.

That's cute, but seriously, this guy should have been dead before he had a chance to grab.

I mean, type more words, but it all comes back to that.

Yep. Unfortunately recent history (Ferguson, etc) has dictated that cops be social workers and crisis negotiators first and steely eyed killers second, so when they are thrust into situations where they need to be killers, hesitation is king.

quote:

Originally posted by 4ftty4:

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by 4ftty4:
And by all means, if you want to experience it yourself, come join up.

That's cute, but seriously, this guy should have been dead before he had a chance to grab.

I mean, type more words, but it all comes back to that.

Yep. Unfortunately recent history (Ferguson, etc) has dictated that cops be social workers and crisis negotiators first and steely eyed killers second, so when they are thrust into situations where they need to be killers, hesitation is king.

All I can say is I hope that stuff hasn’t ruined every officer to the point where they won’t dust off a shit bag before he grabs some old lady in a walker to cut her throat open. But you seem to be telling me otherwise.

Because Ferguson.

Not every Officer, but more than a few. Look at Chicago, Baltimore etc. the fear of repercussions overpowers training. Example, the female cop from Chicago a couple years ago who didn’t shoot the young black man who was holding her hair and smashing her head into the pavement because she didn’t want to be on the news.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by 4ftty4:

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by 4ftty4:
And by all means, if you want to experience it yourself, come join up.

That's cute, but seriously, this guy should have been dead before he had a chance to grab.

I mean, type more words, but it all comes back to that.

Yep. Unfortunately recent history (Ferguson, etc) has dictated that cops be social workers and crisis negotiators first and steely eyed killers second, so when they are thrust into situations where they need to be killers, hesitation is king.

All I can say is I hope that stuff hasn’t ruined every officer to the point where they won’t dust off a shit bag before he grabs some old lady in a walker to cut her throat open. But you seem to be telling me otherwise.

Because Ferguson.

Most cops hired in the last 5 years are trained from the academy to think like this now. At least they are around here.

I doubt we will ever see the cops of old again as the norm. It’s truly a different world now. It’s much worse than people understand, and it’s systematic. People who believe in this philosophy are the ones being promoted to administration, they are the ones re-writing policy, writing lesson plans, they are the ones giving citizen review boards the ability to dictate based on their whims. They are the spineless DAs that dismiss case after case to keep these shitbags on the streets, or the liberal judges that give weak sentences and low bonds for violent crimes.


The street cops that can make good tactical decisions seem to be more rare now. My guess is most people capable of that level of thought and action have enough sense to not take a job with mediocre pay and dwindling benefits, that makes you record your entire working shift in first person for the news to broadcast any time you drop an F bomb or look sternly at a snowflake that can complain on you and get you in trouble for farting too loudly.

What scares me is I would have shot the sonofabitch. Without thinking. And then I’d spend six months getting vilified by the media, cause a riot, and hopefully get waved on by the DA’s office to go back to work eventually. Hopefully. My agency has been known to charge its own officers to preempt social disorder.

I’ve got 15 years left. That’s a long time for someone who likes to be in the middle of the shit to try not to get fired in today’s environment.

The shitbag was already cutting her throat, I feel like Officer #1 could have taken a few steps forward and taken the shot almost flush to the guys head.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
The shitbag was already cutting her throat, I feel like Officer #1 could have taken a few steps forward and taken the shot almost flush to the guys head.

I know, right? None of them took a step forward. They practically all have the same fucking stance. Lack of training isn't the issue here, shitty training just might be.

You are completely correct. We as a society are sacrificing our safety and persecuting those who safeguard it, on the altar of political correctness.

My apologies, 4ttyy4, I deleted my reply because I thought better of posting family stuff. You guys are ham-strung and it just eats me. It really does.

Stay safe out there, you and all our friends that wear the badge.

"Ferguson Effect"

Cops are afraid to be the next guy who kills a Michael Brown. More less lethal weapons and waiting equals two things dead innocent people and dead cops. Thanks Liberal America and BLM.

quote:

From the article:
As Perez cut the woman's throat, three of the officers opened fire...

I've heard that multiple times, that when the officers opened fire the perp had already actually started cutting her throat. So, it seems like a choice between her dying for sure because of a cut throat, or maybe dying in gunfire that could save her. That man had already stabbed someone. He clearly wasn't going to surrender.

Tough decision. But I think the officers did the best they could under the circumstance. It was a no-win situation for them. Had they shot him any sooner, they would have been accused of killing an man who "ain't dun nuthin, he wasn't a threat to anyone."

I saw the son of the woman killed on TV where he was claiming that he loved her, would never see her again, and that the police had no regard whatsoever for her life. I notice that woman didn't live with her son, she was a resident of that homeless flophouse.

Terribly complex decision tree here. In some jurisdictions, an officer would have been cleared immediately for shooting him in the back while advancing on the woman. In others, they get fired and indicted. Everywhere runs the risks of riots and additional violence. Hats off to you men and women who still do it.

The only part I am having a problem with (as far as the officers’ conduct, not the end result obviously), is the notion that because you have to pull the trigger you have to do it 6 times. I understand shoot to stop the threat, but I suspect few if any of these officers could dump 6 rounds on an obstructed target in mere seconds on the range, in a static environment with no stress. Seems unreasonable to do so under these conditions when a precious life hangs in the balance.