quote:

Army Col. Mark Weathers, West Point's chief of staff, said in an interview Monday that he was "disappointed" in the cadets for cheating, but he did not consider the incident a serious breach of the code.

WTF???? What’s this country coming to?

Yesterday I watched a video of a travel vloger on YouTube. I started watching her videos when she got stuck in India at the outbreak of COVID and watched her struggles to survive. She is kind of a modern day hippie and I’m not sure why I still watch her. She made it back to LA where she is from and stayed there for a couple of months. She is now in Mexico and part of the reason she left LA was to "escape communism". That comment surprised me and gave me a new respect for her. I don’t know why I’m posting this as it has nothing to do with West Point, it just made me think of her comment.

So many things wrong here, don’t even know where to start.

quote:

"Most of them have been enrolled in a rehabilitation program and will be on probation for the remainder of their time at the academy.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have never heard of any rehabilitation programs for cheating. Could be some money in this..... You could fill the facility with Wall street types and the like. I went to a University with a strict honor code and they simply expelled you if you were caught and the Honor Council felt you were guilty.

We just had a field grade in our BN beat a racism investigation for the second time this year. BN CDR was appointed investigating officer, sent results to BDE CDR who recommended a General Officer memorandum of reprimand. Went to division and the asshole somehow appealed and beat it. What really burns us is that we know there are people who helped him with his appeal, likely senior NCOs and officers, who wrote character statements. Statements for a racist who makes manning decisions against blacks and females. If you're part of his good ol' boys club, you get to chill with a 0900-1600, M-F work schedule with a 1.5 hour lunch in there at the nicer facilities.

I have never been more disappointed in the Army than I have this year. 12 years in and there is no sense of justice. If the accused were enlisted, he would've been hung out to dry.

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
Statements for a racist who makes manning decisions against blacks and females.

Been going on in the Army for decades and it goes both ways. When I was in in the 80s, our black sergeant sent us white guys out to the field every single time while the cute girls and his fellow black guys stayed home and played. We got all the shit jobs and they got nothing but a good time.

Promotions as well. There were four of us white guys, all of us had earned EFMBs and I had completed a paramedic program. All of us in for better than three years each and all still PFCs. The girls and his black guys were making E4 less than six months out of AIT with no qualifications other than being black and/or female.

I pointed out the issue one day and I became the racist. Nope, the Army was not for me. Proud of the time I did, but I would NEVER do it again.

quote:

Originally posted by Icabod:
During the 1976 cheating scandal....

For the record, it happened in 1976 but involved the Class of 1977; electrical engineering (EE304).

My mother used to be prone to saying 'I'd be ashamed' when speaking of far lighter transgressions. This ain't a light transgression.
That is one long ass gray line to be dishonoring.
I hope they are haunted to their dying days by this.
There may be a precious few that this incident 'brings to Jesus'. As was stated, they will be watched. The rest should be drummed out.
Maybe that is the point, to try and salvage a few out of this bad bunch.
I tend to agree with Elkhunter. Good riddance to bad baggage.

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Every last one of them should have been expelled and transferred to infantry unit in regular army to serve out an enlistment.

I agree with Elk. They were plebes (first year cadets) and cadets have no service obligation for the first two years. Just throw them out and be done with the cheating sons of bitches.

I was a plebe back in 1972-73 (graduated in 1976). By the middle of your plebe year they have had sufficient training in the honor code to FULLY comprehend that you don't lie, cheat or steal (or tolerate). It's not a hard concept to understand. A lot of our training was in Beast Barracks. I remember a guy back in our Beast Barracks who, after going to the shooting range to qualify, came back with some empty brass after declaring he had "no brass or ammo, sir!" and showed it around. He was gone the next day.

Additionally, if you are not sure as to what you can or cannot discuss with a classmate concerning an exam or homework problem, YOU CALL THE PROFESSOR AND ASK!

No matter whether these cadets stay or leave, this will follow them the rest of their lives.

"You can't cheats the math". Elon Musk (probably)

It's a math test. These future warriors will soon be asked to win at all cost. They are put in an environment where sometimes they have to cheat to get through. It's all part of the training. Not one cadet gets through without sidestepping parts of the training. Adapt and overcome. I don't like that they were caught cheating, but they can still be great officers.

quote:

Originally posted by mdj:
It's a math test. These future warriors will soon be asked to win at all cost. They are put in an environment where sometimes they have to cheat to get through. It's all part of the training. Not one cadet gets through without sidestepping parts of the training. Adapt and overcome. I don't like that they were caught cheating, but they can still be great officers.

Yeah, sure, ends justify the means. Everybody cheats. What's the big deal - 'honor' and 'integrity' is over-rated, anyways. We don't REALLY need officers who believe in a sense of personal ethics. Heck, they will make great democrat/Rino politicians when they are through at the Point.

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

quote:

Originally posted by mdj:
It's a math test. These future warriors will soon be asked to win at all cost. They are put in an environment where sometimes they have to cheat to get through. It's all part of the training. Not one cadet gets through without sidestepping parts of the training. Adapt and overcome. I don't like that they were caught cheating, but they can still be great officers.

Yeah, sure, ends justify the means. Everybody cheats. What's the big deal - 'honor' and 'integrity' is over-rated, anyways. We don't REALLY need officers who believe in a sense of personal ethics. Heck, they will make great democrat/Rino politicians when they are through at the Point.

I can both see your point AND see where you are wrong. If their career spanned 24 years and they saw multiple combat tours and this was the LEAST of their transgressions then YES, I would be inclined to overlook. I would not let it SLIDE, but I also would not DROP the hammer.

However, this is their "day 1", do they go up from here? Perhaps. Or worse, is this who they are?

It is as if you were visiting a car mechanic, for years he had served you well, one day he misses something. He apologizes and you know that he simply made a mistake.

Now take your car to a brand new guy, he misses something and costs you money. Do you wager your future money and belongings on the notion that he will make up for it later?

I highly doubt it.

Perhaps that is a poor analogy but I'm hoping it comes out right.

AND let me state this, I dont know you, I dont know your possible current or previous rank, I dont know your history but if you are telling me that "cheating is part of the training", then you are totally F'ing wrong. I don't train for a 5:30 mile to have a SOB tell me her ran one 1 second faster than he actually did.

“Aggies do not lie, cheat, nor steal, nor tolerate those who do.” “But we do collaborate, elaborate, and liberate.”

With that said, TMK, A&M had a very strong, no cheating, policy. TMK, being caught meant expulsion and getting black balled from other higher end schools.

My question is, how did 70+ cadets cheat if they were taking an online exam in their barracks/dorm rooms.

I am all for thinking outside of the box, and bending the corners of any rules on certain issues. Heck, we always had to articulate, acquire, and obtain things in Civil Affairs because we were low on the totem pole. Same in Afghanistan.

But there are certain rules and regulations that you do not bend nor do you lie, cheat, steal etc..
Especially when it comes to honor, integrity, and peoples life's.

I guess I couldn't cheat because I have a conscious and I was raised with integrity, honor and morals.

If 70 or more cadets are cheating that speaks to other problems. One or two maybe.

It was about this time last year we had a discussion that 30+ Georgia State Police Officers that were fired for cheating::

"Georgia Department of Public Safety Commissioner Col. Mark W. McDonough confirmed at a news conference Wednesday that 32 troopers were fired after being accused of cheating on an online exam for the speed detection operator component of the school's curriculum. ... All 33 are August graduates of the 106th Trooper School.Jan 29, 2020"

The other half went to Univ. of VA for grad school and they had a zero tolerance policy. She spoke of a couple of incidents where individuals tried to get over, got caught and went before the board. They booted them.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mrapteam666,

One simple question: If you were in a unit led by one of these cheaters would you trust them to make hard decisions involving life and death?

I would not. They cheated, broke the honor code and their word.

The only part with which I disagree in this incident is the fact that they were not summarily dismissed and escorted off the base that day!

I think there used to be a process to be followed in escorting them off the base, but may be mistaken in that.

These cadets are going to fit in just fine with the new Amerika, where cheaters and cheating are a requirement to survive.

There are people that should be held to a higher standard.

Cheating is just an implementation. It's the mentality and rationalization behind the cheating that is concerning. The disregard for honor and integrity. For standing up for what's right.

If they are already cheating when the implications are relatively trivial and personal, what will be their behavior when it really counts and others are at risk?

These 70 cadets were found cheating, but was is to say there wasn't more that didn't get caught. I agree, they need to be removed off the base, but that's not enough of a deterrent for the other cadets. I suggest they send all 70 cadets through hell week, not once, but a couple of times. Then kick them off the base.

Honor and Integrity need to be returned to West Point. Otherwise, it's just another university.

No. I think immediate ejection sends the message that needs to be sent. If the USMA is going to expel them, they should do it as quickly as possible and not waste another minute on them.

Of course, it doesn't look like the academy is going to do that. I think this is going to cause a lot of problems in the ranks in the academy, and may cause issues in the Army itself when this class gets out into active service.

quote:

Originally posted by ptruck:
These 70 cadets were found cheating, but was is to say there wasn't more that didn't get caught. I agree, they need to be removed off the base, but that's not enough of a deterrent for the other cadets. I suggest they send all 70 cadets through hell week, not once, but a couple of times. Then kick them off the base.

Honor and Integrity need to be returned to West Point. Otherwise, it's just another university.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BBMW,

Everyone from an 0-6 down to a slick sleeve private will know who these officers are and how can anyone take them seriously when they knew they got caught for cheating.

Plus if they have to lower the hammer on someone, it will definitely be thrown in their face or brought up if a person takes it to JAG that they were a cheater and given a second chance per se...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mrapteam666,