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| hello darkness my old friend  |
I'm single with no children here in Utah. I pay the exact same property tax as the gentleman next door on the same size lot with the same home value. A large portion of that goes to schools. He has 5 children and I don't and yet we pay the same tax? He can write several of his kids off when their very existence requires government support for teachers and facilities. I don't mind contributing but people with five children should pay significantly more in property/school taxes than I do. As for taxes I would rather MLB and NFL pay taxes before we worry about taxing people on their religious beliefs. | |||
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| Leatherneck |
The NFL voluntarily relinquished its tax exempt status several years ago. It doesn't make much difference as only the front office was tax exempt anyway and all the teams still paid taxes, but they did away with it anyway. “Everybody wants a Sig in the sheets but a Glock on the streets.” -bionic218 04-02-2014 | |||
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A Grateful American |
Your argument belies your ignorance of what the whole of the purpose of the church and the synagogue. It's not roads and bridges, nor parks and recreation. Ironically, people donate/give and also do/provide services as well. But, I actually believe that churches and synagogues should pay taxes and then say and speak and do all they can to push back against bad government. Since many will not speak out and take a stand because they don't want to risk loosing money to paying the taxes. What was that some young Rabbi said a long time ago? "Who's face is on the coin? Then render to him what is his, and render unto God, what is His." But, again, it is not about the taxes. It is about people having an issue with religious organizations. (...and other institutions, divisions everywhere. The order of the day.) "the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" ✡ Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב! | |||
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| Be not wise in thine own eyes  |
This thread got me thinking about a Hank Williams Jr. Song. Give it a listen, it’s almost as if he wrote it for this thread. “We’re in a situation where we have put together, and you guys did it for our administration…President Obama’s administration before this. We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics,” Pres. Select, Joe Biden “Let’s go, Brandon” Kelli Stavast, 2 Oct. 2021 | |||
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| Member |
I think you let off mosques. Gotta have someplace to hide weapons | |||
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posting without pants |
Lets do both. Taxes for everyone, and less taxes for everyone. Strive to live your life so when you wake up in the morning and your feet hit the floor, the devil says "Oh crap, he's up." | |||
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| Member |
Belies my ignorance... really. The phrase "There are none so blind as those who will not see." fits you very well in this argument. No, it's not about having an issue with religion/religious organizations/charitable organizations. My first post in this thread specifically states that it's from a purely economic point of view. Please stop twisting my words or inferring things that are not there. It's disingenuous and rather than further civil debate it does just the opposite. I've already answered your points above in previous posts, now it's just a "did not/did to" argument. Although from a moral perspective I understand your point of view but you, however, are absolutely unwilling to acknowledge the economic point of mine. Is there really any point saying the same things over and over again? Additionally, the dig about the young rabbi who had something to say about it is just you being passive-aggressive and holier-than-thou. It may make you think you're smarter and better than others but that, along with personal attacks, further detracts from civil debate.This message has been edited. Last edited by: marksman41, | |||
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| Official forum SIG Pro enthusiast  |
gw3971, on the flip side of your argument did your neighbor not also contribute 5 future tax paying citizens to the country? It’s not easy to avoid taxes entirely. Sure I suppose they could be a drain on the system but between income and sales taxes they are likely to be a net gain for tax revenue. Over the long run your neighbors decision to have 5 kids will more likely than not bring in more tax revenue for the government. Unless I’m looking at the situation incorrectly. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The price of liberty and even of common humanity is eternal vigilance | |||
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| A Grateful American |
I did not. My entire reply was in response to your "economic" argument. And I did reply that I would rather see organizations pay taxes and be unencumbered by law or fear of losing 501c status over "political" speech. (but that is a whole different argument) The platform you base all of your argument upon, is incorrect, as to the purpose of the church/synagogue. So, yes I am going to point that same thing out again. And no person can put forth an argument or position, without realizing that as in any attack/defense situation, it always puts the party at risk of insult. Ad hominem attack is legitimate. You or any others, make statements to the effect of "coming to take" from another, should be met with "personal attack", civil discourse, included. You may call me blind, and passive aggressive, does not make my position any less, but on the issue of "economics", I challenge you to dig in and find out what the matter of actual economics would result from taxing churches and the total impact, either positive, or negative in regard to the "good" provided to society of the organizations, vs the value of the taxes collected and what end and effort those dollars go. Had your position not been based on "...you donate to a church/charity and get a good feeling." as the "service" provided and "worthy of tax", then I never would have replied, because that premise is incorrect. I do welcome your reply, in fairness, and will not counter. (but do not want you to think I am being dismissive if you reply and I do not) "the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" ✡ Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב! | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money  |
So, you go to the Church of the Everlasting Feel-Good and you get a "service" like going to a spa and getting a massage? Phooeeey!! I agree with the sigmonkey. I don't think you really understand what religion is. But, I'll grant you this much: Some of these mega-churches have corrupted religion. Some of these places ARE for-profit, tax-dodge enterprises. "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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"Member" |
And then, more taxes for everyone. Because that's reality. More money to give away and buy more votes. _____________________________________________________ Sliced bread, the greatest thing since the 1911. | |||
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| half-genius, half-wit |
Your young rabbi did not have to deal with the IRS. | |||
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| Member |
sigmonkey and chellim1 - it seems you take offense to my wording of getting a "good feeling" when giving to church and charity. I use those words because that's what I get when I give. That and the belief that the money I donate will help fund good causes. If you don't like me using the words "good feelings" then tell me what you would like to read instead that says the same thing. When either of you give/donate to church/charity do you feel nothing and believe the same? If that is so, why donate at all? If you do have an positive emotion or belief about your donation then you have received something in return for your money and that can be considered a purchase. This is the economic principle that I'm bringing to the discussion. I understand and am for the morality of not taxing churches and charities but that is a subjective view, whereas I'm talking about the objective state of paying tax on money received no matter what the cause. And sigmonkey, I'm at a loss as to your thinking that initiating personal attacks are in any way legitimate. All they do is devolve and divert the discussion. It is possible to debate and disagree with civility. | |||
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| Official forum SIG Pro enthusiast |
I really don’t think Sigmonkey is arguing for the IRS to have any more power than they already have Tacfoley. I don’t think he is arguing for the IRS to have any more targets for them fixate upon and abuse than they already have. If anything I believe he is probably arguing the opposite of that. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The price of liberty and even of common humanity is eternal vigilance | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money |
When I make a donation it's usually for a specific charitable purpose. I do get a good feeling for that. But... if I knew 20% or 25% of my donation was going to government instead of my charitable purpose, it would spoil 100% of that good feeling.  So, what would I do? Would I donate an additional 20%? Probably not. I'd probably try to figure out a way to help outside of the tax structure. "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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Member |
For me, donations to my religious organization have never had a "what's in it for me?" component, either directly or through how it makes me feel, at least in an earthly sense.
Everybody has his/her own reasons for giving, but I don't see how one's motivations should have a bearing on whether a tax should be levied on those donations. Like I said before, if you want to immediately destroy all organized religion, then allow it to be taxed. It will then become just another arm of the government. Destroying organized religion is the real goal of the pro tax crowd. Notice there are never calls to tax the many institutions of higher learning, or even Planned Parenthood, and those all receive donations and "sell" a service. Anybody who tells you that institutions like Harvard aren't in it for the money are just fooling themselves. They solicit their alumni for donations in a way that makes a T.V. preacher seem like an amateur. Demand not that events should happen as you wish; but wish them to happen as they do happen, and you will go on well. -Epictetus | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money |
It's not possible to destroy religion. The Romans tried. They fed Christians to the lions, but that didn't destroy their religion. What they (government) can do is make it more difficult, illegal, or what have you... and drive it underground. "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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| Thank you Very little  |
Why does the feeling of the giver matter when determining Tax Status, if one gives money and claims they didn't "feel" right does the tax status change in this scenario. What If someone gives labor, should the church take the Party of the Government in charges expected labor rate, multiply it by the time given, extract the "feelyness" of the giver and apply a tax burden, Labor has value, value must be taxed. What if the person giving labor hurt their back, and doesn't "Feel" good about it, no taxes. What if my wife attends the church and I play golf, or go shooting, sleep in, she wants us to give money, and I'm ambivalent about it.. who's feeling do we use, hers creates taxable situation, does mine avoid it, should we divide the gift 50/50 and the church only pay's tax on half... Its all so confusing....
Exactly that, people would cease donations (some people will probably respond with a big yee haw") or go underground. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feel about this... | |||
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| Member |
Notice I purposefully included "organized" religion. Currently the Chinese have very effectively prohibited organized religion to where religion cannot operate in an open manner. Government already exerts its influence over religion now, even though religion is technically tax exempt, though the threat of a revocation of the tax exempt status. Some religions must be very careful to remain officially politically neutral, if their congregation is conservative, while leftist leaning church's are free to be political from the pulpit without fear of loosing their exempt status. Remember how vocal Obama's "chickens come home to roost" preacher and church was about politics? I personally feel that churches should be free to speak on politics without fear of repercussion from the government. After all, Patrick Henry's "Give me Liberty, or Give me Death" speech came from Richmond’s St. John’s Church during a political convention. Requiring churches to be apolitical is a rather modern requirement, and a back door method of control through the threat of taxes. Demand not that events should happen as you wish; but wish them to happen as they do happen, and you will go on well. -Epictetus | |||
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| Member |
I'm not saying that getting a positive feeling is a primary reason that I, or anyone else gives, but it and the belief one is doing good/helping others is a part of the trade. | |||
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