quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
People pay tax on income, then donate that taxed income to the church, so the church then pays taxes on that already taxed income, where that income has not earned any profit?

Hmmm..... Not sure I can see supporting that.

I do not attend any church, but the things I do see churches involved in, compared to the government.

One taking all of our money by force of law, and the other by the will of those who choose to give.

And the absolute criminal behavior in mismanaging the money, the power and what not, compared to the one that seems to be doing more that benefits than harms people.

Are we simply focusing on something we can shake our fists at and maybe inflict some pain, rather than standing up to the one that does us damage?

Just wondering, why?

Great points. AS far as your point on people being taxed then giving after being taxed to churches - I never looked at it that way. All income from every church I have ever attended was from people giving it. No church I have ever gone to had the ability to make money, most were barely surviving.

I still think the answer is a universal consumption tax. If we had that everyone, including criminals (well to some extent, illegal things would still be bought that would not be taxed), would pay taxes on what they purchased. You want to lower your tax liability? Stop buying stuff. The rich would no longer be able to use the law to avoid taxes, we could do away with a worthless government agency (the IRS) and criminals would pay their share of their illicitly acquired income as they spend it. It's not perfect but it is the best I can think of.

Very well said Sigmonkey.

Will the churches also get things like earned income credits because I'll guarantee many churches run at near the poverty line. Basically, not only wouldn't those churches pay any tax they'd get that sweet government tax return to buy a new TV every year.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
People pay tax on income, then donate that taxed income to the church, so the church then pays taxes on that already taxed income, where that income has not earned any profit?

Following that logic, churches should be taxed the same as any business providing a good or service. Churches provide a service, businesses provide a service or good. The dollar I pay for a business service is taxed when I get it, then the business is taxed on that same dollar when they get it - assuming their losses don't exceed their profits.

Like many here, I am against giving the government any more money to mismanage and I understand the good that many churches do but, from the purely economic view, why should churches or any other entity be exempt?

Aren't we up to half the people in the US not paying in any income taxes now? lets concentrate on them before we get to the churches.

I have a better idea - how about a National Flat Tax and flush the rest of the Tax Code.

When we have such philosophical questions the answer is clear. Ask airsoft guy and sigmonkey for their opinion, mix the succinct with the verbose, bake at 350° for 30 minutes and enjoy.

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
People pay tax on income, then donate that taxed income to the church, so the church then pays taxes on that already taxed income, where that income has not earned any profit?

Following that logic, churches should be taxed the same as any business providing a good or service. Churches provide a service, businesses provide a service or good. The dollar I pay for a business service is taxed when I get it, then the business is taxed on that same dollar when they get it - assuming their losses don't exceed their profits.

Like many here, I am against giving the government any more money to mismanage and I understand the good that many churches do but, from the purely economic view, why should churches or any other entity be exempt?

What service so they provide? It's not set up like a business, people do not donate expecting something for the money like services a business provides. churches are not providing a product, people donate money to them and get nothing tangible in return. That's much different that buying a product or service from a business. It's apples to oranges.

quote:

Originally posted by Graniteguy:
I have a better idea - how about a National Flat Tax and flush the rest of the Tax Code.

The Fair Tax makes more sense than the Flat Tax. At least to me.

Great idea. Let's give the government more money to squander.

quote:

Originally posted by kimber1911:
Perhaps Churches should bill the Government for the services they provide to society.

There you go.

quote:

Originally posted by mrvmax:

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
People pay tax on income, then donate that taxed income to the church, so the church then pays taxes on that already taxed income, where that income has not earned any profit?

Following that logic, churches should be taxed the same as any business providing a good or service. Churches provide a service, businesses provide a service or good. The dollar I pay for a business service is taxed when I get it, then the business is taxed on that same dollar when they get it - assuming their losses don't exceed their profits.
Like many here, I am against giving the government any more money to mismanage and I understand the good that many churches do but, from the purely economic view, why should churches or any other entity be exempt?

What service so they provide? It's not set up like a business, people do not donate expecting something for the money like services a business provides. churches are not providing a product, people donate money to them and get nothing tangible in return. That's much different that buying a product or service from a business. It's apples to oranges.

You really need to follow pastors and preachers and many, many others that counsel. They even counsel people in the prisons. Many, many people have been kept out of jail and from going back by faith and contribute to society.

I find it appealing that some are using separation of church and state as the justification for the state to tax churches. A tax would have just the opposite effect, for it would give the state a direct means to exert its influence on religion.

In McCulloch v. Maryland, the Supreme Court ruled that a U.S. State has no authority to tax the Federal government, observing that “the power to tax is the power to destroy.” Are there so many on this board who are so hostile towards religion that you would support granting the government the means to destroy religion?

I would contend that religion provides more services, both directly and indirectly, to more than compensate society for religion’s tax-free status. Think about this. Do you think, when taken as a whole, that police services are more widely used by those who are regular church goers, or those who are non religious? Are prisons populated with more choir boys or gang members? I would expect that our society is better, and cheaper to the public coffers, with churches among us.

^Exactly.

For those of us who are not tax nerds, churches pay property tax on property not held for specific church purposes. For example, my church owns the 5 acres next to the property the church buildings are on and pays property tax on that because it isn't being used for church purposes. I suggested clearing it and making it an overflow parking lot, but that didn't happen.

Even nerdier is UBTI, Unrelated Business Taxable Income, which exempt organizations pay UBIT, Unrelated Business Income Tax, on.

quote:

Originally posted by nukeandpave:
If they paid their share, we wouldnt have to keep paying it for them.

That’s a nice thought, but it would be closer to accurate to say that, “If they paid their share, the government would piss away more money trampling our rights and privacy.”

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
I find it appealing that some are using separation of church and state as the justification for the state to tax churches. A tax would have just the opposite effect, for it would give the state a direct means to exert its influence on religion.

In McCulloch v. Maryland, the Supreme Court ruled that a U.S. State has no authority to tax the Federal government, observing that “the power to tax is the power to destroy.” Are there so many on this board who are so hostile towards religion that you would support granting the government the means to destroy religion?

I would contend that religion provides more services, both directly and indirectly, to more than compensate society for religion’s tax-free status. Think about this. Do you think, when taken as a whole, that police services are more widely used by those who are regular church goers, or those who are non religious? Are prisons populated with more choir boys or gang members? I would expect that our society is better, and cheaper to the public coffers, with churches among us.

I love the thoughtful responses from people here that give me insight to ideas I've not come across before like this post.

quote:

Originally posted by mrvmax:
Great points. AS far as your point on people being taxed then giving after being taxed to churches - I never looked at it that way. All income from every church I have ever attended was from people giving it. No church I have ever gone to had the ability to make money, most were barely surviving.

I still think the answer is a universal consumption tax. If we had that everyone, including criminals (well to some extent, illegal things would still be bought that would not be taxed), would pay taxes on what they purchased. You want to lower your tax liability? Stop buying stuff. The rich would no longer be able to use the law to avoid taxes, we could do away with a worthless government agency (the IRS) and criminals would pay their share of their illicitly acquired income as they spend it. It's not perfect but it is the best I can think of.

I know of at least two local churches that make income from renting out their facilities for events. Seems reasonable and smart to me. I’d be surprised if most others aren’t doing the same.

Love the consumption tax idea, but “Progressives” would hate it. Those scraping by would have no way to avoid the tax as they can only afford to consume what they need. The wealthy could easily avoid the tax by saving and investing (thus becoming more wealthy) rather than spending on excess consumption. The Progs would cry that it was a regressive tax.

Sorry, I can’t get behind that idea.

quote:

Originally posted by oldbill123:
What I want is to form my own church, classify my home as it's office, and stop paying property taxes.

Is there small-scale abuse of exemptions on religious institutions? Sure. I'm not a tax expert but I've no doubt that if there is any way at all for some tax law or other to be abused, it's been conceived and attempted. Your argument fails, however, when considering legitimate and ancient religions- Christianity, Judaism et al.

On the short list of things which constitute the glue which has held our society together, is religion, or, to be more exact, adherance to religious beliefs. Included on this short list are two other things: the traditional family unit, in which a mother and a father raise their children. The last one is patriotism- a love of country and a fervent belief that a people are entitled to live in a nation with actual borders. Entry may be allowed, but by its very nature, a country is exclusive.

When you speak of applying a tax burden to legitimate religions which have existed for centuries. you are supporting the further degradation of this nation. The atheists, agnostics and plain old cynics may not want to hear it, but adherance to religious beliefs is a key component of the structural integrity of this nation. Everyone in this country has benefitted from these silly old concepts concerning man's relation to God.

If you want to see the United States degraded at a faster rate, then, tax the church.

I'm not sure about anywhere else, but here in Arkansas there seems to be a thriving church "business ". Some churches require a copy of your tax forms to join, to insure you are billed for your 10% even requiring automatic bill payment deductions. There are massive amounts of money being spent on large and ornate temples (churches? ). I am an old school Methodist and am turned off by the new modern business of "church".

It seems as if every week there are new store front "churches" popping up in vacant stores. Business must be good.