Sure are a lot of memory “sufferers” in here …

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
Well, to be fair he did say he's been smoking weed for 60+ years and can't remember anything...

Thank you!! All right! Sober or stoned, doesn’t make frigging sense to call a MOST important meeting and then say, “we’ve run out of time.” Liars. Insulting results even to dope smokers.

My friend is working with youths who vape “marijuana” (it’s similar to crack and cocaine), but he said there are less long term effects if the kids did cocaine, than vape marijuana.

The main difference I’ve noticed is if they had problems before/during puberty, and if they got into recovery early, or late.

The ones in recovery in their 20s, whom I know,, had enough of a soul left to feel bad about the pain they caused others.

The ones who got sober at 40, are still self-centered a-holes - they just got scared.

^^^^^^^^^^^
Neither is particularly good for you. Cocaine puts quite a weight on the heart. Remember Lenny Bias, the Maryland basketball player? I have not heard of cardiac issues with marijuana.

It appears, from the trend of this discussion, that it is possible to get addicted to things other than drugs, and the long-term effects are not dissimilar.

quote:

Originally posted by architect:
It appears, from the trend of this discussion, that it is possible to get addicted to things other than drugs, and the long-term effects are not dissimilar.

A good friend of Mrs. Flash can't sleep without taking a big shot of NyQuil. Been doing it for around 30 years or so at this point.

NyQuil is a drug. All medications are. It's just not an illegal/illicit drug.

But yes, it's absolutely possible to become addicted to things other than drugs, such as food, sex, gambling, video games, social media gratification, risk-taking, etc. Or, to be more precise, to become addicted to the neurochemical pleasure effect generated by participating in these non-drug activities. Anything that rewards the pleasure center of your brain can potentially become addictive, especially to a certain portion of the human population prone to addictive personalities.

The distinction is that these examples are not physically addictive in the common sense of the term "addiction" (physical drug dependence where the body physically struggles to function without regular doses of that chemical substance), whereas alcohol and many illegal drugs can be.

But so can many non-illegal widely available drugs, like caffeine, NyQuil, Afrin, etc. When it comes to specifically physical dependence, the difference between a soda/coffee drinker who gets cranky and has a headache when they don't get their morning dose and an opiate addict who gets sick or dies if they don't get a fix is just the magnitude of both the withdrawal symptoms from failing to use and the reward experienced from using.

^^^^^^^^^^^
Addiction or dependency also depends upon how much it affects your life.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
^^^^^^^^^^^
I have not heard of cardiac issues with marijuana.

Oh, he didn’t meant cocaine was good. The kids seem to not complete puberty - not sure what he meant by that, develop schizophrenic brain patterns, and have undersized hearts, lungs, livers and hearts.

(It essentially interferes with their development.)

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
My friend is working with youths who vape “marijuana” (it’s similar to crack and cocaine), but he said there are less long term effects if the kids did cocaine, than vape marijuana.

No, it's not. Either someone was mistaken in what they told you, or you misunderstood what you heard, or something got lost in the translation. I can flatly assure you this is incorrect. Perhaps the only way they're similar is that they can be smoked, and they're illicit, mind-altering substances, and that's about where the real similarities end. The THC vape "pens" aren't as strong as smoking Plain 'Ol Weed, and vaping weed out of an electronic unit isn't appreciably different in it's effect than smoking it, it's just a lot easier on the lungs and can catch you off guard with getting a degree higher, faster than you might expect. When I was doing the vape pens regularly for a bit, my lungs hurt worse and differently than they did with anything else I'd ever smoked, so it was short-lived. Probably only have mild popcorn lung as a result.

Now, if they're vaping concentrates, that's another story. Concentrates are essentially just straight THC in various forms of resin, extracted using butane and other gases. You load the cured flowers (buds) into this tubular collection thing, you shoot the butane into it, and crystals of pure THC fall right off to the bottom, where they're collected and either pressed, or chemically processed further through other means. The end result is a thick amber paste commonly called "earwax" for it's appearance and consistency, "shatter" because it's amber crystal shards of solid resin, oil and degrees between. This is a relatively new thing in the last 20 years, and if anyone reading this ever messed around with hash, this is like super hash. The way it's ingested is typically through a bong called an "oil rig." Pretty straightforward, but instead of a "bowl" piece to put ground buds in, you have a titanium "needle" and a glass globe around it. You run a butane lighter on this "needle" until it's smoking hot, drop the globe top on, which has a little hole in the top, then with a dental pick, you touch a piece of shatter to it, a tiny "dab" of earwax (this is where the slang term "doing dabs" comes from), or a drop of oil. It doesn't burn, it vaporizes, and you draw through the bong until it's done or you can't inhale any more. This is the stuff getting kids admitted to psych wards for all kinds of problems, because while you still build a tolerance to it, you're ingesting far more THC than you ever would just smoking buds or even smoking hash. The closest I came to anything like this was an electronic vape unit I had, which I ran a hose from to a bong with a tiny bit of cold water in. It was cool mist you'd inhale, and the first time I used it, I took a hit, stood up and walked to the kitchen and woke up on the floor a few minutes later with a headache from landing on the tile. The guy I bought weed from, who then turned into a buyer when I got my "medical card" came over and tried some of the top shelf stuff I had with a little blonde hash (compressed "keef" or the dust off the flowers) sprinkled on it. I had him do a hit through that setup and he got way too high, too fast. He was repeating "this is not ok" for about ten minutes straight. I asked him if he was going to make it and he looked at me with eyes wide open and said "No, man, this is like doing real drugs." Apparently, for a few minutes, it reminded him of what it was like when he used to smoke meth, but that was short-lived.

So, if it's concentrates or a home rig like what I had, yes, too much of that stuff too often can mess you up. However, the parlance is pretty specific: Vaping almost always means the electronic "pens" and "dabs" is only ever concentrates. "Doing shatter/wax" or anything with an "oil rig" is concentrates. I know a former crackhead I'll run your statement by, but I'm pretty sure he's just going to laugh at me. Even with concentrates, there is a world of difference between that and crack.

Oh, and even in the stoner community, it's been widely known to stunt all kinds of development if you start doing it before puberty, and I'm talking about this was joked about knowingly when I was in high school back in the late 90's. What we didn't have before was a widespread clinical study, which basically our whole country has since turned into and it's being documented now.

To clarify for the ATF agent undoubtedly reading this: I do not do drugs or alcohol and haven't in almost three years now. Happy to take a drug test.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
The ones in recovery in their 20s, whom I know,, had enough of a soul left to feel bad about the pain they caused others.
The ones who got sober at 40, are still self-centered a-holes - they just got scared.

Stark-raving sober. They aren't drinking, but they haven't thoroughly followed the 12 steps of a program that alleviates most of the "asshole" part of the disease. Self-centered is wired-in and takes a lot longer (if ever) to iron out, but there is a major difference between "sober" and "dry." What you're describing are what we call "dry drunk" in AA. Alcohol and drugs were the solution to their internal problems, and now that they've removed the solution, the problem is untreated. The folks I've watched get sober, it's less about when they did it and how bad they got before and more about how badly they want to change. Sample size of at least several thousand just in the past three years. The online AA community is shrinking a bit now that Covid is "over," but I regularly attended a nightly meeting that didn't dip under 800 people a night for about a year and a half. It's still going strong at 350+ people a night with both regulars and newcomers.

It has nothing to do with age. In fact I have seen less dry drunk behavior from older adults. It is a matter of working the program to maintain your sobriety. It is true that many addicts have to spend considerable time working on their issues outside of AA. AA does not discourage this at all.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

I personally know a recovered addict who got shot by the Seattle PD while high on a goofball ...

It was one round, directly in the center of his chest, and the surgeons said the bullet missed his heart by only a couple inches. ...

Smart guy, well-spoken.

I do not know if this is fact or hearsay whether this guy was capped by Seattle Police or not ... but do know that whoever the officer is from whatever agency missed the X ring.

Smart guy and well-spoken ? Kinda a contradiction especially when at the muzzle end of a weapon that was being fired.

There is a question of calibers ( and agree shot placement counts at the end of the day ) ... Seattle Police is issue 9mm and 40 caliber with a few officers grandfathered in with the 45 caliber.

Just sharing ...

I am no medical professional nor a cop, however there are LOTS of long term addicts here in South Florida. With long term opiate users, it really effects their ability to deal with any small issues in life, even when they're clean, every little thing is the end of the world. I think it also effects their thought process. I've known long term coke users who weren't now coke users, and they tend to be a bit paranoid about everything. Never knew any meth users so can't comment on that.

quote:

Originally posted by old dino:
I do not know if this is fact or hearsay whether this guy was capped by Seattle Police or not ... but do know that whoever the officer is from whatever agency missed the X ring.

I believe him. When you hear bullshit from another addict, it's easy to pick up on. Anyway, after much prompting from a group of us one day, he sheepishly showed us the scar. It was right in the center of his chest. I'm not asking you to believe this, but I do.

quote:

Originally posted by old dino:
Smart guy and well-spoken ? Kinda a contradiction especially when at the muzzle end of a weapon that was being fired.

Different guy.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by old dino:
I do not know if this is fact or hearsay whether this guy was capped by Seattle Police or not ... but do know that whoever the officer is from whatever agency missed the X ring.

I believe him. When you hear bullshit from another addict, it's easy to pick up on. Anyway, after much prompting from a group of us one day, he sheepishly showed us the scar. It was right in the center of his chest. I'm not asking you to believe this, but I do.

quote:

Originally posted by old dino:
Smart guy and well-spoken ? Kinda a contradiction especially when at the muzzle end of a weapon that was being fired.

Different guy.

Not a "Different guy", but the same guy who at the time was acting differently (than when you interacted with him) because he was under the influence of the drug(s) when he was shot.

FWIW: I'm not an MD, but as a LEO I received a lot of training from MDs in order to get expertise as a court certified expert in persons under the influence of narcotics. There are both short/immediate effects of narcotics usage and long term effects, both of which vary dependent upon what's being used, it's quantity and quality and the specifics relating to the individual involved. Some people are more susceptible to becoming physically addicted than others and this may have something to do with genetic background, including whether or not one or both parents were users at the time of conception.

In any case, the vast majority of people can become physically addicted if they receive the right dosage of narcotics in sufficient quantities over a set period of time. The brain is changed and increased levels of tolerance can cause physical feelings of pain, which the user has no control of, for at least a certain period of time. That said, it's very rare for those directly under the influence NOT to know what it is they are doing or being so intoxicated that they don't understand the difference between right and wrong to such a degree that they can't be held legally responsible for their acts.

People can recover from addiction, but they have to WANT TO RECOVER and sometimes (frequently) the incentive is provided by legal ramifications, as well as support from family, friends and employers. I've lost a brother due to drug abuse and have other family members that suffered through addiction, but recovered. A good LEO friend became addicted to opiates after being over-prescribed medication for a back injury, and if you're unfamiliar with the story behind OxyContin, Perdue Pharma, and the Sackler family, I'd strongly recommend watching the mini-series "Dopesick" on Hulu. My friend's situation was way too common and had nothing to do with "recreational" use of drugs. In any case, there is help to be had, but no guarantees.

There is no "magic pill" to cure addiction or course of treatment that doesn't rely upon great efforts on the part of the addicted person. In CA, "decriminalization" of narcotics possession and personal use has eliminated much of the incentive for addicts to clean up and rehabilitation "Mills" are a cash cow. Addicts can and do walk away from these facilities (without consequences) far more than they seriously engage in treatment and overdose deaths (like addiction associated homelessness) are at record levels. Maybe someday big pharma will develop a "cure" for addiction that won't require the active participation of those addicted in order to be straight, but I doubt it. Even IF the physiological challenges to addiction are overcome, there's sociological issues (personal relationships between drug abusers) that will always need to be dealt with.

IMHO: Prevention of "recreational use" has been downplayed for far too long and the anti-social consequences ignored because there's big money in drug sales (including alcohol and tobacco). When the media makes voluntary intoxication part of a funny narrative, kids buy into it (literally as well as figuratively). This in turn leads to social acceptance of using chemicals to deal with everyday stresses of life. For far too many, there is a "slippery slope" and (at least in CA and similar states) seeing cocaine, meth, and heroin possessed and used without fear of legal consequences, has proven extremely destructive of the community.

Some good discussion here.

I’ll add, to the specific question on pain, the only drug I’ve seen consistently make people feel nothing and go stark raving mad is PCP. Especially the guys that would soak weed or tobacco in it and smoke it.

But a bullet to the CNS or a proper tasing stopped every single one in their tracks. Even drugs don’t beat science. The rest of the time we piled on top of them and hoped they wouldn’t die after we got them cuffed.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by old dino:
I do not know if this is fact or hearsay whether this guy was capped by Seattle Police or not ... but do know that whoever the officer is from whatever agency missed the X ring.

I believe him. When you hear bullshit from another addict, it's easy to pick up on. Anyway, after much prompting from a group of us one day, he sheepishly showed us the scar. It was right in the center of his chest. I'm not asking you to believe this, but I do.

Smudge ... I believed it happened. Was curious about the caliber of the round that hit him in the chest. Chatted with a friend that is still working for Seattle ... looked up info going back to 2010 (there are officer involved shooting in Seattle, but not lots) and nothing found that fits this incident. It has happened where someone thought it was Seattle but was actually another agency in the area, or in the city of Seattle such was WSP or King County.

My question is this-

If cops are not really qualified to understand or comprehend this, why do we continue to set them up for failure by sending them to deal with it on a day to day basis?

If this is truly a medical problem, can’t we as a society do something different instead of doing the same thing expecting a different result?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
My question is this-

If cops are not really qualified to understand or comprehend this, why do we continue to set them up for failure by sending them to deal with it on a day to day basis?

Who do you think we should send instead of cops?