This is why I sold my last bike and no longer ride. Way too many clueless drivers in urban environments coupled with my 50+ year old reaction times is a recipe for just this sort of outcome.

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:

Also, the advice to ride further over in the lane is dead wrong. "Defend your lane" is what we used to preach at MSF courses. You ride within your lane, not outside of it, but don't cower to the side. If you're already next to the shoulder or barricade (left or right depending) when a threat presents itself, where are you going to go with an evasive maneuver? Think about it. If you're near the inside line, you've got a smidge of room to dip out. If you're already at the outside edge, all you've got left is brakes and prayers.

Yeah, I ride in the half closer to the cars to fill their mirror. Most people don't know proper mirror adjustment and can hardly see past their gas cap. If I can't see their face, they can't see me, and the further over you go away from them, the worse it gets.

quote:

car guy is at fault but the biker showed ZERO common sense. He was going 55 when he ran into the back of the car - presumably after hitting the brakes and beginning to slow down. He was running 20-30 mph faster than the surrounding traffic. That is a recipe for disaster.

Agreed. Pretty much what I was going to write.

Went back and indeed at 12 seconds you can see he's at 80 MPH, and went through the video as best as possible frame by frame, not to make a point as much as to see what his reaction times were, when he decided to throttle off, and brake as well as how long it took,

You can see the Hi-boyta start it's move in front of the BMW early enough, warning one

At full speed it's very quick, in slo mo, you see the Hi-boyota driver start his move, cutting off the BMW as the BMW's lights come on, then moving into the HOV lane at a reduced speed. Warning number two.

You can see the Hi-boyta angled at the HOV lane and based on it's aggressive move to cut the BMW off need to presume it's coming to the HOV lane Warning #3

From 19 to 21 if you move it in full size frame by frame you see him roll off the throttle prior to Hi-boy moving into the HOV, so he saw the threat, once the front wheels of the Hi-Boyota start crossing the yellow line you can see his hand reach for the brake, after rolling the throttle down prior to that by a second.

As to the speed, limits on CA freeways is 70 MPH, so while we comment "OMG he was running 80!" understand that's about 10 mph over in the HOV lane. I'd imagine that's about what you would find 70 to 80 mph average on those freeways, when they are actually moving. So he wasn't flying well above the limit.

Nonetheless, it does illustrate the distance you cover at speed, the time it takes to react, and that the results you want take time, even a second is a long time.

It looks like he recognized the threat, but waited about a half second too long to comprehend how slow the Hi-boyta was going to be moving when it got in the HOV lane, and thus the way he reacted to a potential threat wasn't sufficient,

A half second earlier might would have saved his bike from road rash and him from a trunk ride with the stoner boys.. And he'd just gotten to give them the finger then.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

It looks like he recognized the threat, but waited about a half second too long to comprehend how slow the Hi-boyta was going to be moving when it got in the HOV lane, and thus the way he reacted to a potential threat wasn't sufficient,

This is a really important point to make. Repeatedly.

We address this in aviation a lot where the speeds involved are even more significant. Whether it is rejecting a takeoff, reacting to converging traffic, or even dealing with an emergency, the human brain operates at a certain speed, and it is not instantaneous. Anyone who saw the movie "Sully" got a glimpse into this when even though alarms were going off and engines were failing, they still had a significant "WTF" period before effect response started.

On takeoffs, we have a defined go/no-go speed (V1) for takeoff. Trying to stop after passing that speed is a quick route to disaster. To account for the lag in reaction time, it has been standard procedure for the pilot calling the speeds to call V1 5-10 knots prior so in case something actually happens right around that speed, there is enough reaction time to safely stop the plane.

tl:dr No one reacts immediately. Nor can they.

quote:

Originally posted by stickman428:
The one reassuring thing about my newest bike is that you can hear it from three blocks away. You would have to be absolutely stoned out of your mind not to know I was riding my R1 near you, it is ungodly loud.

Not correct, and an age old case of bullshit. Loud pipes do not save lives. 3 blocks away is behind you, especially on a freeway. They can't hear you until you are right up on them. They don't know where the sound is coming from. With music in the car turned up doubtful they'll hear you at all.

I almost hit a HD rider a few days ago. I heard his exhaust and didn't turn into his lane as I was planning on doing (he rolled up quickly in my blind spot). You cannot say loud pipes don't save lives. Yes, they won't avoid all crashes but they certainly have kept me from hitting riders in my blind spot. In this case it wouldn't have mattered though, the best shot would have been for the rider to have lane split or ridden the shoulder. Not going so damn fast would have been helpful too.

I'm not a "loud pipes" good, despite my love for Harleys, but objectively - anything that increases awareness of riders to those in cars and trucks has a positive effect on safety.

They (the pipes) certainly don't hurt.

Otto, a good observation, is as you say to be observant, one other thing that I think the mind does is adjust to speeds so it can make sense of what is going on around it, calculate options.

Take for example auto racing, most obviously seen in a NASCAR race, watch the beginning when the cars take off or a restart where the camera is either in the track or on the side wall, you see the cars coming but as they go by at 170 to 190 MPH you see a blur, it's impossible to make out the cars from up close.

However, then go to an in car camera and you can easily see the cars in back or beside, because you are running at the same speed, the distance objects become blurry but you can easily make sense of your surroundings whatever the speed if you are at a similar pace.

I think the rider had a moment of "no, you are not going to get into my la... shit MF'r is in my lane, brake brake brake....bam...

It was close, but that's only good in horseshoes and polish weddings...

Lets segway into the hogwash of not being able to hear a bike behind you with loud or heck even not so loud pipes, seriously, think about it, sound travels at 1,125 ft/s; or approximately 767 mph.

Unless you are in a car moving faster than the speed of sound, you are going to hear loud pipes from in back, front, side, top, under your car, it's just a matter of WHEN you will hear them, 100 feet, 500 feet, 1000 feet.

Don't believe me, stand at the end of a quarter mile drag strip with no ear plugs and see if you can hear a top fuel dragster from the other end, heck sit in your BMW with the radio on and chat/texting on your Iphone. I bet you hear sound from over a 1/4 mile away burn out. The point being, sound doesn't travel backwards out of exhaust pipes because they point backwards..

The motorcyclist was going to fast and didn't allow any room to adjust for issues like this. When you're moving faster than everyone around you any movement by those around you is going to cause this situation.

The motorcyclist is an antagonist and needs an ass kicking. Oh, looks like he already got one...
https://streamable.com/jewxu

How is the guy an antagonist for riding down the road, being cut off illegally over a double yellow crashing his Harley and managing to live to tell about it? Really?

quote:

Originally posted by sandman76:
How is the guy an antagonist for riding down the road, being cut off illegally over a double yellow crashing his Harley and managing to live to tell about it? Really?

Because too many people in this world think that all blame must be shared.

quote:

Originally posted by stickman428:
I almost hit a HD rider a few days ago. I heard his exhaust and didn't turn into his lane as I was planning on doing (he rolled up quickly in my blind spot). You cannot say loud pipes don't save lives. Yes, they won't avoid all crashes but they certainly have kept me from hitting riders in my blind spot. In this case it wouldn't have mattered though, the best shot would have been for the rider to have lane split or ridden the shoulder. Not going so damn fast would have been helpful too.

Yes I can say it, loud pipes do not save lives. You can believe what you want. Every instructor I've ever had over 20 years says it's bs. And the track instructors will fall over hearing it yet again. I agree with them 100%. It's like saying the 45 is a man stopper and the 9mm won't do shit, same thing, an utter myth regurgitated by the inexperienced and/or ignorant. The exhaust is spitting noise to their rear. Exhausts are not pointed forwards. A Harley running straight pipes is indeed loud as hell but you won't know where it is and most, the overwhelming majority, it won't make a bit of difference anyhow. A sportbike, you will never even hear it until it's close to level with you. It is a myth debunked a long long time ago. Only the inexperienced believe it.

https://www.autoevolution.com/...ed-part-1-45969.html

quote:

Some of these myths have their origin in the non-motorcycle world; others are sadly believed by some bikers, mostly inexperienced ones or guys who tend to trust appealing stories they hear here and there, but skipping the preliminary judgment stage.

Translation, anecdotal = cow dung.

Saying such things on a knowledgeable sportbike forum would get you laughed off it. Take the accident in the OP, a louder exhaust wouldn't have done shit. The cagers were not paying attention and it would have done nothing. I saw the gap the rider had. While he was not at fault, I've been in the exact same situation, and much much worse than that and had zero impact because I saw cages slowing down, bunching up, and I prepare for an idiot such as this. He wasn't doing what I was taught, treating every vehicle like it's a threat and out to kill you. He wasn't prepared for a rapid stop, and he was on some sort of cruiser which weighs more and has inferior brakes compared to a standard, sportbike, etc. There were a multitude of reasons why that accident occurred and I can assure you a loud pipe or not had zero relevance.

quote:

Originally posted by sandman76:
How is the guy an antagonist for riding down the road, being cut off illegally over a double yellow crashing his Harley and managing to live to tell about it? Really?

You need to look at his YouTube channel. While he has taken down the worst videos because people were calling him out for being a dick, you can still see it. He races around way too fast and busts into road rage whenever he is inconvenienced and has to slow down.

quote:

Originally posted by AKSuperDually:

quote:

Originally posted by sandman76:
How is the guy an antagonist for riding down the road, being cut off illegally over a double yellow crashing his Harley and managing to live to tell about it? Really?

Because too many people in this world think that all blame must be shared.

Shared? Maybe you didn't read my post. The idiot was going too fast and moving faster than the flow of traffic. It is his fault that he didn't leave himself any room to adjust for movement of the slower traffic around him.

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:
There were a multitude of reasons why that accident occurred and I can assure you a loud pipe or not had zero relevance.

Agreed.

The rider in the video was not technically at fault, in my opinion.

However, I believe the accident could have been (and should have been) avoided by better defensive riding skills.
For example, he did not anticipate a slower vehicle coming into his lane, and he should have.

Loud pipes on your motorcycle won't keep you from being involved in an accident.
To believe that they will is silly.

Ultra-defensive riding, along with the proper protective gear, gives you your best chance of arriving at your destination in one piece.

Loud pipes annoy everyone.
Try having some respect for your neighbors and the people around you.

quote:

Originally posted by LBTRS:

quote:

Originally posted by sandman76:
How is the guy an antagonist for riding down the road, being cut off illegally over a double yellow crashing his Harley and managing to live to tell about it? Really?

You need to look at his YouTube channel. While he has taken down the worst videos because people were calling him out for being a dick, you can still see it. He races around way too fast and busts into road rage whenever he is inconvenienced and has to slow down.

I just looked at his YouTube channel, and see what you mean. Additionally, he is a serious rubber necker not looking forward.

Check this one out at 4:55 to 5:10 where he crosses the double yellow line into the HOV lane just like he is mad about the Camry doing to him:


Link to original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBfwEkebdg4

The Camry is 100% at fault in the OP's video, but this guy's riding style and attitude makes it less likely he'll avoid the accident,

Yeah, guy seems like a tool...he has more accidents in his future.

He did get a few Karma credits back by picking up the trash out of the street at the end (he must have done that before the vid. in the OP...that's what saved him!)

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:

quote:

Originally posted by stickman428:
The one reassuring thing about my newest bike is that you can hear it from three blocks away. You would have to be absolutely stoned out of your mind not to know I was riding my R1 near you, it is ungodly loud.

Not correct, and an age old case of bullshit. Loud pipes do not save lives. 3 blocks away is behind you, especially on a freeway. They can't hear you until you are right up on them. They don't know where the sound is coming from. With music in the car turned up doubtful they'll hear you at all.

Not faulting the rider, but he was on a black/dark bike and wearing all/mostly black gear. Some bright orange and yellow would be better than loud pipes. It my not have helped in this instance though.

The only thing necessary for the so-called myth to be undeniably true is for exhaust noise to have saved a potentially tragic accident TWICE, EVER, in the entire history of motorcycles, only two times in more than 100years and millions of motorcycles on the street. That's an incredibly low bar, and so low that it's crazy to not believe it's happened.

Now, is it the end all be all safety solution, of course not. Would it help it every situation, of course not. Would it have helped this guy, probably not. And I'm not even a regular proponent of the notion/slogan, but it's clear that it may help, probably has helped someone somewhere, and the fact is - you (the universal) cannot prove it either way.

So stop, please. You don't know... nor do your (or my) instructors, either.

That said, I agree that this guy wasn't paying enough attention and (at least philosophically) shares some blame. But the rest regarding the so called myth is dumb.