quote:

Originally posted by Cousin Vinnie:
Clary (Perp) had to be on PCP or something. Tased and took a series of punches, but kept fighting. I am surprised that the troopers couldn't handle him?

Possibly. But even without illicit drugs, adrenaline together with the strong desire not to go to jail can be a stone cold bitch of a combination.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Well, that isn't pretty but they succeeded in surviving while not shirking their duties.

Could it have been done better? Most certainly.

Did current pressure on LEOs impact their behavior and decision to shoot / not shoot? Possibly.

.

It never should've gotten to the point where there was shooting. I think that's the point. Those cops should've had that arrest in their back pockets once the douchebag was incapacitated and for as long he was. Instead they allowed a situation turn completely fubar.

That is a bit unkind. The guy was large, looked well muscled. Even if only drunk 2 on 1 he carried his own. If he was just high on pot, or meth he likely was in better control of his faculties than a drunk. He clearly was not incapacitated by the taser. he turtled up. That kept them from getting a good armbar lock on his arms to hook him up. Not everyone is affected by tasers fully, just like pepper spray. He clearly fought through the taser. This tells me he had been tasered before. Batons, pepper spray may have helped. Putting cuffs on the ankles may have been an option. all that though may not have come to mind in the 42 seconds of this conflict.

An old apt adage. "The top swordsman does not fear the second best, he fears the worst. " You can anticipate what a trained man will do, you have no clue what a dipshit on drugs will do. You have no idea what to plan for, what to anticipate. So by circumstance the possibilities expand exponentially.

There were lots of failures here, I am not excusing their failures. Just saying don't make more of them than they are. Apparently, the man was pretty compliant up until he wasn't. That put them behind the 8 ball.

My state. I am not an expert. But FWIW, one observation being made here is that our State Police are more traditional highway patrol and don't get the routine hand-to-hand that a city cop would get in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh. Not that they shouldn't train for or be expecting it. But that fluency comes with practice. Fortunate indeed.

I am amazed it took so long to start raining blows down on this guy to soften him up. Obviously, the two of them were unable to gain a reasonable position of advantage by wrestling with this turd. When he continued to resist, its time to bring the serious pain. Ground and pound.

Was the officer out of view who shot out the driver side rear window using a rifle or a pistol? I am amazed the guy behind the wheel was able to drive away. I am grateful the two troopers survived.

quote:

Originally posted by DSgrouse:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Well, that isn't pretty but they succeeded in surviving while not shirking their duties.

Could it have been done better? Most certainly.

Did current pressure on LEOs impact their behavior and decision to shoot / not shoot? Possibly.

.

It never should've gotten to the point where there was shooting. I think that's the point. Those cops should've had that arrest in their back pockets once the douchebag was incapacitated and for as long he was. Instead they allowed a situation turn completely fubar.

That is a bit unkind. The guy was large, looked well muscled. Even if only drunk 2 on 1 he carried his own. If he was just high on pot, or meth he likely was in better control of his faculties than a drunk. He clearly was not incapacitated by the taser. he turtled up. That kept them from getting a good armbar lock on his arms to hook him up. Not everyone is affected by tasers fully, just like pepper spray. He clearly fought through the taser. This tells me he had been tasered before. Batons, pepper spray may have helped. Putting cuffs on the ankles may have been an option. all that though may not have come to mind in the 42 seconds of this conflict.

An old apt adage. "The top swordsman does not fear the second best, he fears the worst. " You can anticipate what a trained man will do, you have no clue what a dipshit on drugs will do. You have no idea what to plan for, what to anticipate. So by circumstance the possibilities expand exponentially.

There were lots of failures here, I am not excusing their failures. Just saying don't make more of them than they are. Apparently, the man was pretty compliant up until he wasn't. That put them behind the 8 ball.

I wonder sometimes if a taser has replaced a baton. If they opened up on his extremeties with a pair of batons, he may well have screamed uncle. A few minor injuries to that guy is way better than a Trooper being shot.

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
I am amazed it took so long to start raining blows down on this guy to soften him up. Obviously, the two of them were unable to gain a reasonable position of advantage by wrestling with this turd. When he continued to resist, its time to bring the serious pain. Ground and pound.

Or twist a hand untill it breaks.

If a determined offender has a significantly reduced capacity to feel pain, it doesn't matter if cops use a baton, chemical agent(s), fists, feet, or firearms, he or she will keep fighting until they lose the ability to fight through either a loss of control (of the limbs) or because they become unconscious. A baton can (like any impact weapon) have the ability to disable an aggressive opponent if it breaks bones, but it doesn't have some kind of magical power to make people feel pain when they can't feel it like you or I. The exact same thing has been proven time and time again with those under the influence of alcoholic beverages, drugs (not just PCP BTW), adrenaline, psychosis, or just plain enraged.

Not feeling stuff that hurts, gives offenders a tremendous advantage in a fight.

quote:

Originally posted by David Lee:

quote:

Originally posted by DSgrouse:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Well, that isn't pretty but they succeeded in surviving while not shirking their duties.

Could it have been done better? Most certainly.

Did current pressure on LEOs impact their behavior and decision to shoot / not shoot? Possibly.

.

It never should've gotten to the point where there was shooting. I think that's the point. Those cops should've had that arrest in their back pockets once the douchebag was incapacitated and for as long he was. Instead they allowed a situation turn completely fubar.

That is a bit unkind. The guy was large, looked well muscled. Even if only drunk 2 on 1 he carried his own. If he was just high on pot, or meth he likely was in better control of his faculties than a drunk. He clearly was not incapacitated by the taser. he turtled up. That kept them from getting a good armbar lock on his arms to hook him up. Not everyone is affected by tasers fully, just like pepper spray. He clearly fought through the taser. This tells me he had been tasered before. Batons, pepper spray may have helped. Putting cuffs on the ankles may have been an option. all that though may not have come to mind in the 42 seconds of this conflict.

An old apt adage. "The top swordsman does not fear the second best, he fears the worst. " You can anticipate what a trained man will do, you have no clue what a dipshit on drugs will do. You have no idea what to plan for, what to anticipate. So by circumstance the possibilities expand exponentially.

There were lots of failures here, I am not excusing their failures. Just saying don't make more of them than they are. Apparently, the man was pretty compliant up until he wasn't. That put them behind the 8 ball.

I wonder sometimes if a taser has replaced a baton. If they opened up on his extremeties with a pair of batons, he may well have screamed uncle. A few minor injuries to that guy is way better than a Trooper being shot.

In this instance, i meant that the baton could have been used to lever the arms into a more compliant state. Option two would have been to apply sufficient force to the head to force compliance. Though i doubt that would have gone well for the officers either. This man was hell bent on fleeing once the handcuffs came out. He was willing to kill to doit.

also an example of large officers sometimes get complacent about their mere size winning the day / making them overconfident

the Darrell Lundsford video from way back is another one

some people just have a lot of fight in them - its difficult to know ahead of time

----------------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by SBrooks:
The cops looked pretty amateurish. No ground game at all.

As big as the one cop was, you'd think with even just a few weeks of BJJ training, especially in side control, he'd easily control much smaller people.

That was fucking pathetic.

quote:

Originally posted by DSgrouse:

quote:

Originally posted by David Lee:

quote:

Originally posted by DSgrouse:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Well, that isn't pretty but they succeeded in surviving while not shirking their duties.

Could it have been done better? Most certainly.

Did current pressure on LEOs impact their behavior and decision to shoot / not shoot? Possibly.

.

It never should've gotten to the point where there was shooting. I think that's the point. Those cops should've had that arrest in their back pockets once the douchebag was incapacitated and for as long he was. Instead they allowed a situation turn completely fubar.

That is a bit unkind. The guy was large, looked well muscled. Even if only drunk 2 on 1 he carried his own. If he was just high on pot, or meth he likely was in better control of his faculties than a drunk. He clearly was not incapacitated by the taser. he turtled up. That kept them from getting a good armbar lock on his arms to hook him up. Not everyone is affected by tasers fully, just like pepper spray. He clearly fought through the taser. This tells me he had been tasered before. Batons, pepper spray may have helped. Putting cuffs on the ankles may have been an option. all that though may not have come to mind in the 42 seconds of this conflict.

An old apt adage. "The top swordsman does not fear the second best, he fears the worst. " You can anticipate what a trained man will do, you have no clue what a dipshit on drugs will do. You have no idea what to plan for, what to anticipate. So by circumstance the possibilities expand exponentially.

There were lots of failures here, I am not excusing their failures. Just saying don't make more of them than they are. Apparently, the man was pretty compliant up until he wasn't. That put them behind the 8 ball.

I wonder sometimes if a taser has replaced a baton. If they opened up on his extremeties with a pair of batons, he may well have screamed uncle. A few minor injuries to that guy is way better than a Trooper being shot.

In this instance, i meant that the baton could have been used to lever the arms into a more compliant state. Option two would have been to apply sufficient force to the head to force compliance. Though i doubt that would have gone well for the officers either. This man was hell bent on fleeing once the handcuffs came out. He was willing to kill to doit.

Using a baton to leverage/joint lock a limb or joint manipulation is not taught in most police departments. Of course if it isn't taught to you, you can't use.........until you are getting your ass kicked and are fighting for your life and most of the time (at least previously to the Saint Michael Brown incident) you are shooting them. During our annual ASP refresher I showed some Kali techniques of using an ASP for joint manipulation and the Department ASP Instructor about had a stroke. I think the big mistake with the ASP baton striking training is it is taught more as a traditional impact weapon like the old school classic wood police baton or the St. Louis Third District Table Leg nightstick (yes it is a table leg capped at both ends with brass fittings, it is like swinging a small baseball bat) instead of as a speed weapon like a Kali or Escrima stick. The ASP is too light to be used effectively in the way it is taught to cops. Sure it will stop most of the "maybe" people who were thinking of fighting and resisting but it won't effect that all out thug charging you and ready to hurt you. See the video that I posted in this thread:

Bodycam footage of Officer Involved Shootings

We recently had an incident where a guy much smaller than the thug in the video resisted arrest by turtling up and tensing up (defensive resistance) in a Metro Link train. Due to the small confined area it took 4 big and good sized officers to get him into handcuffs with a crowd of people (or folks) standing around them videoing it on their phones.

In the video, the one trooper threw a lot of punches but hardly any of them were effective or effecting the suspect. They may have done damage but they weren't stopping the fight. A couple of good hammer fists to the side of the head, or rather to the brachial plexus would have possibly worked better.



Good explanation but the video is sideways:



A sleeper hold aka rear naked choke aka lateral vascular neck restraint would have worked too but for most departments their use have been dropped. Look how the media screamed about the "illegal" choke hold used in the Eric Garner incident

I don’t have the expertise to comment other than to say God bless our men and women in blue.

Maybe obvious question, but why weren't the tires shot out?

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
Maybe obvious question, but why weren't the tires shot out?

Maybe because the troopers were busy bleeding and trying to kill the guy who was trying to kill them. I would rather use my rounds to stop him then shoot a tire.

quote:

Originally posted by jsbcody:

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
Maybe obvious question, but why weren't the tires shot out?

Maybe because the troopers were trying to kill the guy who was trying to kill them. I would rather use my rounds to stop him then shoot a tire.

OK, makes sense. I was thinking, that guy's about to drive off, maybe he should save the last couple rounds to shoot out the rear tires.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:

quote:

Originally posted by jsbcody:

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
Maybe obvious question, but why weren't the tires shot out?

Maybe because the troopers were trying to kill the guy who was trying to kill them. I would rather use my rounds to stop him then shoot a tire.

OK, makes sense. I was thinking, that guy's about to drive off, maybe he should save the last couple rounds to shoot out the rear tires.

At that point tunnel vision sets in whether you Joe Civilian, State Trooper or Seal Team Six Operator: Stop The Threat. Put bullets into him into he goes down and then keep your gun aimed at him.

Also if I am losing the fight and bleeding out, I may want the other guy to leave so I can start working on myself before I pass out.

It appears that department could use some ground fighting training. I've been impressed with Rener and Ryron Gracie's jiu jitsu training videos of military and law enforcement.

That was a bad deal, very bad. Lucky to have survived.

In watching it a couple of times the smaller officer seemed tentative and shook up and failed to contain. Later the big officer failed to take control when he was in a position to. Instead of both taking the bad guy down. Each looked like they were expecting the other to do it. When it got real bad their punches lacked serious intent to do damage.

Glad the officers survived and yes it will be used for training I am fairly sure.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: old rugged cross,

quote:

Originally posted by Keystoner:
It appears that department could use some ground fighting training. I've been impressed with Rener and Ryron Gracie's jiu jitsu training videos of military and law enforcement.

Too true but most departments won't field the cost of sending someone to the training. They will use what ever is the regional training to keep it similar to what everyone else is doing and keep the certification and re-certification costs down. For my area, our defensive tactics training is the dreaded PPCT.

I am going to try to attend a Gracie Survival Tactics LEO Instructor course in late October but it will be on my dime ($895 for course + travel, hotel, food, and kennel for my dog) and my time (vacation and comp time). Truthfully, my vacations are about martial arts seminars, shooting, and dog training.