quote:

Truthfully, my vacations are about martial arts seminars, shooting, and dog training.

So, you're saying you have a perfect life?

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
Amazing that they couldn't get him under control with the tazer, dude must have been high...

Drugs do not overcome a proper taser deployment. A taser works by causing neuromuscular incapacitation (NMI). In lay terms, the energy interrupts the electrical impulses from your brain to your muscles and renders you immobile. It is a physiological/neurological event that can't be ignored because of a substance in the body. That is not the same as other intermediate weapons such as a baton, OC spray, etc. which rely primarily on pain compliance.

There are a myriad of other things which could cause a taser deployment NOT to cause NMI. If the probes are too close together, a person may only experience pain and not NMI. The wider the probe spread, the more effective the NMI. This is because the electricity cycles between the two probes, so if you can get one in the middle of the back and one in the buttocks, you typically have really good NMI. Two probes 6 inches apart? Not so much.

Other things that can cause problems include thick clothing, which would prohibit probes from penetrating through to the muscle. Remember, a taser only achieves NMI when both probes make good connection. In a proper taser deployment, the device should be almost silent. When you can hear the "clack-clack-clack," that's from a poor connection.

quote:

Originally posted by Revolution37:

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
Amazing that they couldn't get him under control with the tazer, dude must have been high...

Drugs do not overcome a proper taser deployment.

This ^^

I've tased drunk people, people on PCP, people with head injuries (didn't know it at the time).

I have never seen a proper tasing not work.
Every improper tasing I have seen didn't work.

Often the officers fail to take advantage of the NMI window and then say the Taser failed. Poor training is the culprit for that, as with most issues.

quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:
Was the officer out of view who shot out the driver side rear window using a rifle or a pistol? I am amazed the guy behind the wheel was able to drive away. I am grateful the two troopers survived.

From the article,

quote:

Clary, 22, of Chestnuthill Township, was wounded in the gunfight, driving himself to Easton Hospital with injuries that included a bullet lodged in his head.

Mofo is one lucky SOB.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:

quote:

Originally posted by jsbcody:

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
Maybe obvious question, but why weren't the tires shot out?

Maybe because the troopers were trying to kill the guy who was trying to kill them. I would rather use my rounds to stop him then shoot a tire.

OK, makes sense. I was thinking, that guy's about to drive off, maybe he should save the last couple rounds to shoot out the rear tires.

No to mention in a lot of places it is against policy to “shoot the tires out”. It is illegal in my agency for good reason. Shooting the tires out does nothing to disable the vehicle. The only certain way to disable the vehicle is to shoot the driver.

Shooting the tires out is bad for a host of reasons.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
From the article,

I saw that, and thought pretty much the same as you.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:

quote:

Truthfully, my vacations are about martial arts seminars, shooting, and dog training.

So, you're saying you have a perfect life?

Strange, that is what all my married buddies say too.

Seiple was a childhood friend of mines, son, who is a local Police chief.

Hindsight, the troopers could have done better, but that mug drove himself to the hospital with a bullet in his melon!! And we'll pay the bill!!

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:

quote:

Originally posted by jsbcody:

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
Maybe obvious question, but why weren't the tires shot out?

Maybe because the troopers were trying to kill the guy who was trying to kill them. I would rather use my rounds to stop him then shoot a tire.

OK, makes sense. I was thinking, that guy's about to drive off, maybe he should save the last couple rounds to shoot out the rear tires.

No to mention in a lot of places it is against policy to “shoot the tires out”. It is illegal in my agency for good reason. Shooting the tires out does nothing to disable the vehicle. The only certain way to disable the vehicle is to shoot the driver.

Shooting the tires out is bad for a host of reasons.

What's the difference between that and a spike strip? Is ground ricochet the biggest worry?

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:

quote:

Originally posted by jsbcody:

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
Maybe obvious question, but why weren't the tires shot out?

Maybe because the troopers were trying to kill the guy who was trying to kill them. I would rather use my rounds to stop him then shoot a tire.

OK, makes sense. I was thinking, that guy's about to drive off, maybe he should save the last couple rounds to shoot out the rear tires.

No to mention in a lot of places it is against policy to “shoot the tires out”. It is illegal in my agency for good reason. Shooting the tires out does nothing to disable the vehicle. The only certain way to disable the vehicle is to shoot the driver.

Shooting the tires out is bad for a host of reasons.

What's the difference between that and a spike strip? Is ground ricochet the biggest worry?

Spike strips don’t pass through a tire (or miss completely) and strike an innocent bystander.

quote:

Shooting the tires out is bad for a host of reasons.

Seems to work most times in the movies.

quote:

Originally posted by jsbcody:

quote:

Originally posted by Keystoner:
It appears that department could use some ground fighting training. I've been impressed with Rener and Ryron Gracie's jiu jitsu training videos of military and law enforcement.

Too true but most departments won't field the cost of sending someone to the training. They will use what ever is the regional training to keep it similar to what everyone else is doing and keep the certification and re-certification costs down. For my area, our defensive tactics training is the dreaded PPCT.

I am going to try to attend a Gracie Survival Tactics LEO Instructor course in late October but it will be on my dime ($895 for course + travel, hotel, food, and kennel for my dog) and my time (vacation and comp time). Truthfully, my vacations are about martial arts seminars, shooting, and dog training.

It's a shame that it comes down to money when you're talking about the lives of officers, especially when you compare the cost to the amount of settlements paid out. I'd think the training is cheap insurance.

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:

Spike strips don’t pass through a tire (or miss completely) and strike an innocent bystander.

Yeah, well, they already blasted off 40 some odd rounds towards traffic, what's another couple more?

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:

Spike strips don’t pass through a tire (or miss completely) and strike an innocent bystander.

Yeah, well, they already blasted off 40 some odd rounds towards traffic, what's another couple more?

Not trying to be a smartass, but if you’re shooting at the perp, attempting to use deadly force, you’d be covered under department policy (unless your department allows disabling shots- mine does not).

As soon as it is determined you were intentionally trying to disable the vehicle and not using deadly force, you’re out of policy, and will be the target of liability without qualified immunity.

quote:

Originally posted by Keystoner:

quote:

Originally posted by jsbcody:

quote:

Originally posted by Keystoner:
It appears that department could use some ground fighting training. I've been impressed with Rener and Ryron Gracie's jiu jitsu training videos of military and law enforcement.

Too true but most departments won't field the cost of sending someone to the training. They will use what ever is the regional training to keep it similar to what everyone else is doing and keep the certification and re-certification costs down. For my area, our defensive tactics training is the dreaded PPCT.

I am going to try to attend a Gracie Survival Tactics LEO Instructor course in late October but it will be on my dime ($895 for course + travel, hotel, food, and kennel for my dog) and my time (vacation and comp time). Truthfully, my vacations are about martial arts seminars, shooting, and dog training.

It's a shame that it comes down to money when you're talking about the lives of officers, especially when you compare the cost to the amount of settlements paid out. I'd think the training is cheap insurance.

The worker's comp settlements come from a completely different fund. Usually it is from an outside source that deals entirely in workers comp. The city/county will pay workers comp insurance rates to them for their expertise. Hell, if they have never been injured (something worse than a vicious paper cut or stapler attack ), and have never been through the workers comp process, most Chiefs have no idea how it works. Really, I am not kidding. As a sergeant, I had to explain the process to two different Chiefs about what my officers were going through and dealing with. I have sit in on Safety Meetings with Workers Comp representatives who were questioning how an officer got injured. My explanation was basically, "sometimes bad shit happens when you get out of the car".

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:

Not trying to be a smartass, but if you’re shooting at the perp, attempting to use deadly force, you’d be covered under department policy (unless your department allows disabling shots- mine does not).

As soon as it is determined you were intentionally trying to disable the vehicle and not using deadly force, you’re out of policy, and will be the target of liability without qualified immunity.

Yeah, that makes pretty good sense. Thank you.