The neighbor needs to be brought to task for being a little bitch and calling in a domestic violence on neighbors playing video games.

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Originally posted by Scoutmaster:

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Originally posted by nhracecraft:

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Originally posted by Dusty78:
The guy was obviously lowering the gun. What did the cop think he was crouching down to shoot at his ankles? That cop panicked and shouldn’t be a cop anymore. Home invasions do happen with people pretending to be cops.

Anyone with concerns about someone pounding/knocking on their door yelling 'Police' CAN (and SHOULD!) call 911 to verify if the Police are actually supposed to be there!

Curious. It is it likely to get a response from 911 before the police enter your house? Will the police outside the door calmly and patiently wait for your verification?

I wonder. How often do police overreact, shoot an innocent person, in supposed "self defense"? Should that be chalked up as just an "oopsie", a bad day at the office? And how often are police targeted/attacked with little warning where they have little time or flexibility to consider options? How many police abuse their authority vs how often are police abused by the populace?

Dude - This was a 'Call for Service' re: a Noise Complaint....They weren't serving a Warrant!

Sooo, YES, it's VERY Likely to get a response from 911 before the Police 'Enter' your house! 911 would transfer the call to the local dispatch, who would radio the Police knocking on your door! And YES, the Police will 'calmly and patiently' wait for verification. They're NOT 'Entering' your house unless a crime is in progress or they're serving a warrant!

If you make that call, you won't be standing in the doorway with a gun in your hand when you greet the Police!

Further, in the case of the dead guy in Phoenix, if he looked through the peephole in the door and saw nobody, he never should've opened the door in the first place! Call 911

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Dude - This was a 'Call for Service' re: a Noise Complaint..

So why couldn't they then ring the doorbell and stand within view so the resident could see them?

Because cops have been shot through doors while investigating noise complaints in the past.

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Because cops have been shot through doors while investigating noise complaints in the past.

Is that a two way street then?

This guy came to the door with a gun. Perhaps that's because homeowners have been shot answering their doors in the past?

Very astute observation. Shitty situation.

Very san and his family deserves a shitload of money.

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Originally posted by a1abdj:

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Because cops have been shot through doors while investigating noise complaints in the past.

Is that a two way street then?

This guy came to the door with a gun. Perhaps that's because homeowners have been shot answering their doors in the past?

This ^^^^^

There's no "perhaps" about it. We've read in these very pages of incidents where homes were invaded by people claiming to be all manner of things they were not, incl. police officers.

I guess that, going forward, whenever somebody shows up at the door claiming to be police, one will be obliged to call their PD and ask "Are these your guys standing outside my door claiming to be police?"

Yes, it's unfortunate the homeowner choose to answer the door gun in hand, but, from what I've read here, it sounds like he didn't do anything to deserve getting shot to death for it.

I more often side with cops than not, but, based on the events as I've seen them described here, it sounds to me like this cop should be charged.

And so should the neighbor who falsely reported the situation.

I'll preface this by saying I'm going solely on what has been posted in this thread. I did not read the linked articles, nor did I watch the videos. So I am Monday morning quarter-backing. I will further mea culpa myself by admitting that I watched the early videos of the Floyd event (not the later body cam videos), and from those it was apparent to me the cops were guilty, even though recent evidence (body cam videos and audio, autopsy) more than question this conclusion. Having said that....

What are we, as private citizens (I'm not saying "civilians", as cops are civilians too) to do? If our home is truly our castle, and private property is truly private, then I guess I need to build a moat and put vault doors on my house. Not only that, but I have to have ongoing, continuing education about the proper way to answer and not answer my door in the middle of the night. Or to answer it if I hear someone screaming "Police! Open up!" from the other side. And I suppose it's now my duty to budget for the latest and greatest technology to know who is on the other side of my door. Because, of course, a regular peep-hole isn't good enough. Hell, it's my fault I died because I didn't fully and completely do the above.

Look at this situation. He's a regular guy. Playing loud video games at 2AM, possibly drinking. So maybe not the sharpest pencil in the cup. But then, that in itself is not a crime. Unless you live in Lake Wobegon, half of all people are not the sharpest pencil of the cup, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that's not illegal (as far as I know). He prioritizes spending money on video games and beer (again, not illegal, as far as I know). By inference, I'm guessing he's not pulling down 6 figures. So he may not live in the best neighborhood. Again, I may be wrong, but I don't think that's a crime. He doesn't have a RING doorbell. Perhaps that's illegal, as it may be in the new building codes, since it could possibly save a life. He responds to a knock on his door as best he knows how. He doesn't want to be unprepared if it isn't the police, but on the other hand, he doesn't want to ignore it if it is the police also, so he answers his door armed. (This, according to the OP, IS apparently legal.)

I'm also guessing that he hasn't had the 400-level college course and follow-up continuing education on how to answer doors in the middle of the night. Or maybe he just wasn't paying attention when they taught that to him in his common-core high school classes. Perhaps that was the crime that condemned him to death? Perhaps he hasn't done his mandatory monthly live-training for answering doors in emergency situations? Was that his crime?

Given the same situation, what would I have done in the victim's place? In a sketchy neighborhood, with someone pounding on my door claiming to be police, having looked through the peep hole and seeing no one? Perhaps I would have been armed. I'd like to think that I'd have the sense to hide the gun behind the wall, sight unseen from anyone outside, as I opened the door, but at 2AM, I may not be thinking that clearly.

Do I believe that the police would have waited patiently for the victim to call 911, even if he would have thought to? Maybe, but they were called out for a domestic violence call. I'm not sure of police procedure, but would they stand by idlely in such a situation, thinking there is domestic violence potentially happening on the other side of the door they could prevent? I'm guessing that if the police did not get a response to their knock, the guy may be repairing his door.

The victim was effectively "SWATted" - a false crime called in on him that resulted in a hostile police response. As someone posted, the 911 caller should hold some responsibility for this too.

PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO MY CAVEATS - I'm assuming a lot of information I don't have, and I don't know the full story. ALSO NOTE that I am a police supporter in general, and most of what happens to police "victims" is deserved. But, BASED ON MY ASSUMPTIONS, that does not appear to be the case here, IN MY OPINION.

Of course, I could be full of excrement. IANAL or a cop. Just another ordinary citizen who could very possibly have responded in a similar fashion to the victim in his situation.

The guy was obviously putting the gun down, and the cop behind him panicked. Should not have been shot.

Hope the LEO is tried and convicted for this, he is similar to Mohamed Noor in Minneapolis. Should never have been a cop, does not have what it takes.

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Originally posted by a1abdj:

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Because cops have been shot through doors while investigating noise complaints in the past.

Is that a two way street then?

This guy came to the door with a gun. Perhaps that's because homeowners have been shot answering their doors in the past?

Here we go again. It's the same old shit. You claim to be completely neutral and absolutely fair on police matters, but once again, you demonstrate this is not true.

The police were lead to believe this was what kind of call? And what are police trained to do when knocking on doors with suspected domestic violence calls? They are trained to stand to the side of the door, yet you fail to acknowledge this. "Police stand to the side because they get shot through doors" you're told, and you come back with "Well, homeowners get shot through doors." Same old shit with you. The very same. If you were being as fair as you claim to be, you would acknowledge the police training, but no, instead, you try to turn it around.

And, of course, the logical way to handle a late night knock at your door is to open it with gun in hand. It would be foolish to wait and see if someone attempts to breach the door. It would be foolish to ask "Who is it?" through the closed door. It would be silly to call 911 and wait for the police if no one attempts entry and no one responds to your query.
Oh, he "didn't know better"? Maybe so, in which case the stupid is baked into this incident, but that doesn't make what he did right.

Over and over again in this forum, you have demonstrated your bias against the police, and don't tell me how you occasionally give the police some credit, or how you've donated to some police benevolent fund (which, as a business owner, is to your advantage, but that's merely incidental, of course), and therefore what I am saying cannot be true. No games, please. I know you'll never admit it. You don't have to admit it. It's obvious.

I'm not excusing the police officer. Obviously, he shouldn't have shot the guy, but I am tired of you coming into police threads and behaving this way. I would say at least be honest about your bias, but you'll never admit it. This has long been apparent.

OK, so I admit I grew up differently than most other. (Miles from the closest neighbor, only 3 deputies and a sheriff for law enforcement, etc)

It’s AZ. Cops should presume decent folks are armed. Same as they do in TX - at least, the rural parts.

In my hometown, it’s policy to have someone blip the siren, to announce they really are cops, before they start knocking on doors, etc.

This especially matters closer to the border, as home invasion crews are a real thing.

Should the fellow have called 911, instead of open the door - sure.

Should the caller not have been a d-bag, sure.

Should the builder have better insulated the walls, sure.

But the cop pulled the trigger, because he got scared when a citizen started putting down a gun.

Cops are not soldiers. They are civilians, and they have to take chances soldiers do not.

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Originally posted by nhracecraft:. . . Dude - This was a 'Call for Service' re: a Noise Complaint....They weren't serving a Warrant!

Sooo, YES, it's VERY Likely to get a response from 911 before the Police 'Enter' your house! 911 would transfer the call to the local dispatch, who would radio the Police knocking on your door! And YES, the Police will 'calmly and patiently' wait for verification. They're NOT 'Entering' your house unless a crime is in progress or they're serving a warrant!

If you make that call, you won't be standing in the doorway with a gun in your hand when you greet the Police!

Further, in the case of the dead guy in Phoenix, if he looked through the peephole in the door and saw nobody, he never should've opened the door in the first place! Call 911

I guess I don't have the confidence in the response time for my 911 call, especially when there is an person banging on my door wanting to get in. And I don't have a peephole in my front door.

I am sure you would feel the same way if that was your brother that was shot.

Several months ago, I heard a loud banging on my front door. I saw through the peephole that there were two Broward County sheriff's deputies with their weapons already unholstered. Same sort of deal as the call we see here, except it was the middle of the day and I was teleworking from home instead of my office.

I slowly opened the door and was shocked that there were actually 4 deputies there who had their sidearms out.

I asked them what was going on, as I was working from home.

They had gotten a call about a really loud DV incident and allegedly a woman was screaming after a loud pop like a gunshot. Whomever called had given them a description of a dark skinned male and a white female.

I told them that I was home alone and that they must have gotten the wrong address, because I had been working since 6 a.m. and hadn't heard a thing all day.

That was pretty much the last I saw of them, as they went down the street knocking on other front doors. God help me if I'd had an owb holster on like I sometimes do around the house.

From what I was told by a contact I know at TIGTA, the safest thing to do is call 911 and have them radio over. Opening the door right away can get you shot apparently.

I've been to domestic violence calls and had to force entry to check on the status of potential victims. It is dangerous, but that's not what kind of call this was. It was a noise complaint only and maybe playing his video game at that hour was unlawful (meaning an infraction or perhaps a misdemeanor violation), but I don't think the risk level was high to start. When this guy answered the door with a gun in hand, it really increased the danger level but, look at how he was holding the gun and what direction it was pointing! The decedent certainly seemed to be complying with the officers' commands.

I think this use of deadly force was unjustifiable and the officer(s) that fired the shots should be held accountable. Certainly on an administrative level, certainly on a civil liability level, and very probably on a criminal level (i.e.: Manslaughter), given the totality of the facts present. Proving any criminal act requires that 100% of the fact finders in the trial agree that the prosecution proved their case "beyond reasonable doubt" and I think that's certainly possible here.

1. Never trust the Media. Never fucking ever. Have you people not figured this out by now? You really think the series of events described is going to turn out to be exactly right? Really?

2. Don't answer the door with a gun visible in your hand. We've argued this before. Either don't answer the damn door, or keep the gun concealed until you understand the situation. Plenty of people don't answer the door for the cops at night. Our feelings don't really get hurt. And I'll be damned if I'm opening the door for ANYONE I'm not expecting that's not in uniform or driving a marked car at night. So ain't no coppers shooting me by accident.

3. I don't let my guys answer noise complaints unless the complainer is standing by willing to be met with. I straight up cancel them. I don't want to sound dramatic in saying this is an example of why, but THIS is an example why (albeit on the very far end of the spectrum). Lots of other reasons, mostly because we're busy as shit and won't get to them anyway.

4. The pussy that called in the complaint to begin with should have some expensive liability in this mess.

5. We have people call 911 to verify that we are the police knocking on their door all the time. We don't care. If it's possible I will have a patrol car positioned in front with blue lights on, however that's not always a safe idea.

6. If we truly need to get in, we are going to get in and we aren't going to wait for you to open the door. Fortunately, that is extremely rare in comparison to the number of times we simply knock to speak with someone. The vast majority of times if we knock and you don't answer, we'll probably just leave and go on to the next call. Exigent entries are not a dime a dozen.

I wasn't there. I wouldn't come to any conclusions based on an article written by an apparent biased 'news' source. Wait for Phoenix PD and the Maricopa County Attorney's Office to complete its investigation.

The caller may well have been "swatting".

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Here we go again. It's the same old shit. You claim to be completely neutral and absolutely fair on police matters, but once again, you demonstrate this is not true.

Once again you demonstrate that you're inserting your bias against me. I said no such thing, and have displayed no such attitude. Go ahead. Quote the part where I'm "biased against police".

Does saying a resident has the same reason to fear what's on the other side of the door, the same as a police officer, make me "biased against police"?

I didn't even comment on the specific incident. Didn't even mention the officers involved. Yet according to you I'm here hating the police. I don't think my views are the issue here.

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I'm not excusing the police officer. Obviously, he shouldn't have shot the guy, but I am tired of you coming into police threads and behaving this way.

Still trying to figure out what "this way" is? Can you quote my words to help me figure it out?

I don't think it's what I'm saying that's the problem. I believe its your interpreting those words to suit your bias that's the problem. Seems that if I say anything positive about the police, which I have on several occasions, then I'm disguising the "hate". If I comment on anything where the police are involved and there's a problem being discussed, I'm "hating".


I also find it odd that there are people that really are speaking harshly of the police, right here in this thread. But oddly enough they aren't "hating the police", but my merely saying that the homeowner also had a reason to come to the door with a gun in his hand is.

Just out of curiosity. How many times have you had an officer point a gun at you?

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Originally posted by az4783054:
I wasn't there. I wouldn't come to any conclusions based on an article written by an apparent biased 'news' source. Wait for Phoenix PD and the Maricopa County Attorney's Office to complete its investigation.

The caller may well have been doing a variation of "swatting".

You make sense. However, there are some Police Chief's and County Atty's offices who are as trustworthy as the news media in terms of biased vs unbiased response to such matters.

Don't judge all police departments and county attorneys by ca standards. Phoenix is governed by a young female democrat mayor who has nothing to say about the investigation. She might grandstand her liberal political views which could make criminal prosecution that much more difficult and counter productive.

The County Attorney is a Republican, but it's her staff who determines whether charges are brought against a defendant.

The police department conducts a criminal investigation and submits their findings to the county attorney who assigns a team of senior trial attorneys and investigators to review the findings. They may ask for more investigation by the police department, file a criminal complaint or take the findings to a grand jury.

I sat on a few Maricopa County Attorney police shooting review boards. While there are some attorneys who think 'cops are trigger happy', their opinions are not evidence. Prosecutors bring charges under the philosophy of the likelihood of conviction.

The police department will also conduct a separate independent investigation into whether the officer(s) acted within departmental guidelines. That may or may not result in the officer(s) being suspended or terminated with or without criminal charges from the county attorney.

Depending on the circumstances of a case, there could also be a civil rights investigation by the feds.

There are several layers of investigation with an OIS. The family will undoubtedly hire their own investigators and pathologists.