quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

I've seen lots of mechanical stuff manufactured in 2009-2014 fail prematurely. After the economic downfall in 2008, LOTS/MOST manufacturing companies laid off half of their work force or more and usually the ones getting paid the most and with the most experience and the companies were hanging on by a shoe string. So a lot of technical products manufactured in those years is simply not the same quality as ones made just a few years earlier when the economy was good.

Then please explain ole wise one...

Why is equipment manufactured in those same years, installed by several dealers, still providing quality, troublefree service?

and

Why is equipment manufactured outside of those same parameters (before and after), failing?

Built our house in 1976. Came with a Singer brand furnace. After 25 trouble free years I thought we should put a new furnace in. Especially one of the new SUPER EFFICIENT furnaces. So we went with a 95% efficient Armstrong furnace. Lasted 10 years. Then there was a burner compartment problem. Took it out and put in a Rheem. So far it's fine but it's only 1 year old. Frankly wish I could buy another old fashioned Singer.

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

I've seen lots of mechanical stuff manufactured in 2009-2014 fail prematurely. After the economic downfall in 2008, LOTS/MOST manufacturing companies laid off half of their work force or more and usually the ones getting paid the most and with the most experience and the companies were hanging on by a shoe string. So a lot of technical products manufactured in those years is simply not the same quality as ones made just a few years earlier when the economy was good.

Then please explain ole wise one...

Why is equipment manufactured in those same years, installed by several dealers, still providing quality, troublefree service?

and

Why is equipment manufactured outside of those same parameters (before and after), failing?

It just depends on the luck of the draw. But there definitely is a much higher failure rate on products manufactured during that era. HVAC manufacturing companies saw their business drop around 300% virtually overnight. There are many different factors. The suppliers manufacturers got parts from had questionable quality as they were trying to stay in business. The employees the companies retained, the financial condition of the company itself. Many companies were scrounging to stay in business or even turn a profit in that era, many of them used parts sitting on the shelves for years for previous models up, others laid off many of their long time employees leaving less skilled employees, etc. etc. etc. I saw it first hand in the yachting industry. Just in the A/C side of things I have a 2013 yacht with 2-5 ton Dometic chillers that both had catastrophic failures in 2019 about 5 months apart from each other, and should've lasted 12 years.

I can only speak with firsthand knowledge about our furnace. Four years ago we got a Lennox propane unit installed by a reputable local company and it’s been great. Our house was started in the late 1800s and added to several times through the 1960s. It’s a mess of various construction methods and drafty as hell our furnace keeps the house warm and is very efficient. That said, if your guy is a good one, absolutely take his advice.

This is timely. Our furnace is fried, according to the HVAC tech. Some type of power surge fried two transformers, the VSD & motor and the furnace board. $4K.

Or replace the furnace for $9K or the entire system for $14K. Yeah!

He's recommending either Lennox or Rheem. I've been happy with the Lennox we have. I've got a call in with Costco's preferred local provider. We used it for new carpet a couple of years ago and it worked really well.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ59:
This is timely. Our furnace is fried, according to the HVAC tech. Some type of power surge fried two transformers, the VSD & motor and the furnace board. $4K.

Or replace the furnace for $9K or the entire system for $14K. Yeah!

He's recommending either Lennox or Rheem. I've been happy with the Lennox we have. I've got a call in with Costco's preferred local provider. We used it for new carpet a couple of years ago and it worked really well.

STay away from RHEEM. Lennox is much better.

Everytime jimmy posts in an HVAC thread an angel gets his wings.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

It just depends on the luck of the draw. But there definitely is a much higher failure rate on products manufactured during that era. HVAC manufacturing companies saw their business drop around 300% virtually overnight. There are many different factors. The suppliers manufacturers got parts from had questionable quality as they were trying to stay in business. The employees the companies retained, the financial condition of the company itself. Many companies were scrounging to stay in business or even turn a profit in that era, many of them used parts sitting on the shelves for years for previous models up, others laid off many of their long time employees leaving less skilled employees, etc. etc. etc. I saw it first hand in the yachting industry. Just in the A/C side of things I have a 2013 yacht with 2-5 ton Dometic chillers that both had catastrophic failures in 2019 about 5 months apart from each other, and should've lasted 12 years.

Luck of the draw my ass.
How about hacks vs professionals?

Who are you trying to kid with that babble of BS you posted above?
And when are you going to learn that marine equipment is different then stationary residential equipment?

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

It just depends on the luck of the draw. But there definitely is a much higher failure rate on products manufactured during that era. HVAC manufacturing companies saw their business drop around 300% virtually overnight. There are many different factors. The suppliers manufacturers got parts from had questionable quality as they were trying to stay in business. The employees the companies retained, the financial condition of the company itself. Many companies were scrounging to stay in business or even turn a profit in that era, many of them used parts sitting on the shelves for years for previous models up, others laid off many of their long time employees leaving less skilled employees, etc. etc. etc. I saw it first hand in the yachting industry. Just in the A/C side of things I have a 2013 yacht with 2-5 ton Dometic chillers that both had catastrophic failures in 2019 about 5 months apart from each other, and should've lasted 12 years.

Luck of the draw my ass.
How about hacks vs professionals?

Who are you trying to kid with that babble of BS you posted above?
And when are you going to learn that marine equipment is different then stationary residential equipment?

It is true, HVAC companies went through massive layoffs during that time period. Parts sat on factory shelves for years before being utilized in production. Finished units sat around for up to 5 years before being installed. Half of their workforce at many HVAC manufacturing companies were laid off, well experienced techs at installation companies were laid off. The ones that were left weren't exactly inspired to do their best job. Generally, the higher paid employees in each position were laid off. A lot of manufacturing saw this, not just HVAC, it's just the nature of the recession.

Yes, Marine equipment is more complex and built to a higher standard than household but similar in many aspects. Haven't heard of any household HVAC manufacturer utilizing titanium in their coils like Dometic does in all of their chillers.

And when are you going to learn that the brand of equipment is equally as important as the installer. You've mentioned on several occasions that the brand makes no difference to how long the equipment lasts, and that it is ALL the quality of installer/install. While the quality of the installer and install is a large part of it, the quality of the brand of equipment is as well. Some cheap/discounted crap equipment like Rheem or Argo air, is simply not going to last nearly as long (on average) as a quality brand such as Trane, no matter WHO installs it.

Ok. I have the model numbers.

The two-stage that he said has been around long enough to be proven, but is still relatively new is s9x2b080 (a gold series furnace is $2200 installed). It's .5% less efficient than my current furnace, but he said they made some improvements including reducing the noise of the unit (one of the regular complaints about the American Standard and Trane furnaces I read about).

The modulating unit is auhmb080. He said it would be $2800 for that unit (platinum series furnace) installed. It's even newer than the two-stage is, which gives me some heartburn about a track record of reliability...

He also said that the Luxaire I have had a quality decline around the time that we bought ours. At one point they were well regarded, but that certainly changed. Whether the decline was due to the recession or some other factor, I don't know that it matters.

Since it doesn’t sound like you’re comfortable with another modulating, I would go with the 2 stage he quoted you.

He’s giving you a REALLY good price for that unit, fyi.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

<snipped the bubbling>

And when are you going to learn that the brand of equipment is equally as important as the installer.

Because it simply isn't and that's a FACT.

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

<snipped the bubbling>

And when are you going to learn that the brand of equipment is equally as important as the installer.

Because it simply isn't and that's a FACT.

Your statement is like saying that a Cooper tire as long as it's installed by a professional is just as good as a Michelin that costs 50% more.
Junk equipment, is still junk equipment no matter WHO installs it OR even if the best installer in the country installs it. A terrible/cheap brand is still a terrible brand and low quality regardless of installation. Quality equipment is quality equipment, yet still needs to be installed properly. There are dozens and dozens of websites listing the best and worst A/C brands.
Such as this one:
https://www.pickhvac.com/gas-f...rst-brands-to-avoid/

And I'm a great artist, because I buy quality paints and brushes.

Jimmy, if you knew as much about HVAC as you *think* you do, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But then again, this *isnt* your profession, so I understand your lack of facts and information pertaining to this subject.

Jimmy, please stay out of these threads. You’re on my ignore list but I had to reply to your BS.

BEST CASE is to have a Trane/AS system installed by a professional and not a hack. There are plenty of hacks out there, that’s why Trane doesn’t allow everyone to buy their equipment. But you can have a Trane dealer (or a different reputable installer) install even a Goodman that will last for years.

Your chances of having a dependable system for years are obviously better using the best equipment and the best installers.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
Jimmy, please stay out of these threads. You’re on my ignore list but I had to reply to your BS.

BEST CASE is to have a Trane/AS system installed by a professional and not a hack. There are plenty of hacks out there, that’s why Trane doesn’t allow everyone to buy their equipment. But you can have a Trane dealer (or a different reputable installer) install even a Goodman that will last for years.

Your chances of having a dependable system for years are obviously better using the best equipment and the best installers.

Which is exactly what I have been saying in this entire thread, which was post #3

That is, until excam man made a blanket statement that since the OP's crappy luxaire heat exchanger failed after only 10 years that his tech doesn't know what he's doing and that all brands of equipment have the same lifespan and quality regardless of quality or price of the unit. Or the fact that anybody could buy say a Goodman unit on ebay and anyone could install it, versus Trane's quality equipment or very tight dealer network.

I'm amazed at the hyperbolic comments made about an entire industry. Even if I were still designing compressors for this industry at the major compressor manufacturer I would not have this type of info.

We've exhausted the HVAC questions time and time again. Every year. I recommend that people having questions about HVAC use the karmanator search utility and find the relevant info.

My experience with a new furnace (March 2019) has been excellent. I chose a very high efficiency variable speed fan gas furnace by Daikin. The equipment runs without issue, saves me money on gas, keeps the house at the correct temperature, and looks great in the garage.

Two points:

First,
Jimmy says to stay away from Rheem.
Jimmy post a link which ranks furnaces, from best, better, basic and worst.
However, if you click on his link, then click the link for "best gas furnaces", it lists Rheem in their examples (Doesn't really help defend your case).
Trane is listed in every category, best, better, basic and worst (No margin for error there... lol).

Not that it matters, when they're using data with different end manufactures (read that as installer, because they are the last person on the manufacturing line). As this isn't "plug and play" equipment.
**As a FYI, that link contains several misguided facts and statements.



Second,
I have and will continue to state the installer is the most important factor in ones HVAC system.
Don't take my word for it, click the tech link below. To save everyone the time, skip forward and listen to a minute of it, from 44:15 - 45:15.

Jim Bergmann reviews combustion analysis, the BluFlame analyzer and measureQuick - YouTube
https://www.google.com/url?sa=...&cshid=1580955886319

Listen to what Jim Bergmann says about heat exchanger failures as it gets close to the 45:15 mark.

Signed, sealed and delivered.

That’s a great video Excam and he is pretty much dead on. I will say that a lot of heat exchangers fail early on the newer HE units because in my opinion they have made them ‘too’ efficient and too thin which is one way they eek out the highest efficiency they can. They don’t last as long (cracking) as the old units.

I went back to page 1 of this thread and I somehow missed the post where goatboyz said he had corrosion in the unit near the gas valve and manifold and corrosion in the Heat Exchanger. Sounds like he didn’t set the furnace up correctly to begin with.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:

I went back to page 1 of this thread and I somehow missed the post where goatboyz said he had corrosion in the unit near the gas valve and manifold. Sounds like Tom may have not been cleaning the manifold when he has been serving the unit. I’m also curious if the heat exchanger cracked or rusted.

Buried in the details, goatboyz posts this:

quote:

It sounds like its a known failure point of the Luxaire model we have... Condensation builds up while the manifold is burning at the lower rate. That condensation pools and corrodes through the heat exchanger.