I used the search function, but didn't find anything that really matched what I'm looking for. I seem to recall some similar questions being asked, but I couldn't find the old threads.

My wife and built new in 2009. I knew enough to look for some catch phrase info on furnaces at the time, but not enough to ask the questions that matter. Like service issues, design flaws, poor manufacturing, etc. After all, a furnace is a furnace when comparing a similar modulating furnace against another, right..? Now I need some help.

We currently have a Luxaire LP9c modulating natural gas furnace. He have had consistent problems (new control board, multiple new gas valves, new manifold, etc). Now we need a new heat exchanger. While there's a limited lifetime warranty on the heat exchanger, shipping, labor and some other aspects are not covered... To fix our current issue, its going to run about $600. The guy who installed the furnace and has done all the maintenance and service till now (Tom) said to plan on the gas valve needing to be replaced periodically to the tune of another $600 each time.

Tom recommends installing a new American Standard two-stage furnace (I'm waiting on the model number still). He said it would be very similar to our current furnace and run about $2200 installed. Based on how he was talking, it sounds like this is a reduced price given our current situation and the fact that he installed and serviced it.

Now to the questions... I don't think I want to go with another Luxaire based off this furnace's performance and problems.

Has something changed at Luxaire that I'm wrong to not consider them?

What brand(s) should I look at for the new furnace?

Of the suggested brand(s), is there a specific model to choose?

Are there any brands that should not be considered under any circumstances?

Does two-stage or modulating make that big of a difference, and is there one that is the clear choice?

If you were choosing to heat a 2000 sqft, 2 story, very high efficiency home (in N/E WI), what specifically would you choose to do it with?

Thank you for any help that you can give me to help with my research.

If your current HVAC guy is good then take his advice.
Most all products now days are very good - it is the sizing and installation that is the most important.
American Standard HVAC brand is fine, they are an Ingersoll Rand Company that also owns Trane.
YMMV

American standard is a top tiered company and built in the same plant as Trane. I'm not up on the pricing on Furnaces as we don't use them here in South Florida, but the price sounds pretty reasonable installed and 20 years on a furnace is a good while.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
American standard is a top tiered company and built in the same plant as Trane. I'm not up on the pricing on Furnaces as we don't use them here in South Florida, but the price sounds pretty reasonable installed and 20 years on a furnace is a good while.

Good info. Thanks! I'm not sure if you mean 20 years on the existing furnace, but we just passed the 10 year mark a couple months ago..

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
If your current HVAC guy is good then take his advice.
Most all products now days are very good - it is the sizing and installation that is the most important.
American Standard HVAC brand is fine, they are an Ingersoll Rand Company that also owns Trane.
YMMV

This. American Standard is top rated equipment and have the lowest failure rate in the industry. As long as you have a reputable installer (sounds like you do), you can’t do better. Like was stated, American Standard equipment is essentially Trane and Trane does not allow just any contractor to install their systems because it’s easier to ensure a good installation. One of the cheapest brands you can buy like Goodman aren't junk, but they are not as reliable. Luxaire is made by Johnson Controls and is middle of the road quality-wise. It would be a little cheaper to go with them, but with the price you were quoted for the A.S. there’s no reason to.

Modulating furnaces do a better job of keeping an even temperature in the entire house than a 2 stage. A 2 stage is a good compromise between a modulating and single stage. I would only go with another modulating if you plan on staying in your house for a long time (more than 5 or 6 years). They’re obviously pricier than a single or two stage, but they are the most efficient so you’ll recover the difference eventually. The price you were quoted sounds great for a 2 stage so you might want to see an estimate from Tom for a modulating.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
If your current HVAC guy is good then take his advice.
Most all products now days are very good - it is the sizing and installation that is the most important.
American Standard HVAC brand is fine, they are an Ingersoll Rand Company that also owns Trane.
YMMV

This. American Standard is top rated equipment and have the lowest failure rate in the industry. As long as you have a reputable installer (sounds like you do), you can’t do better. Like was stated, American Standard equipment is essentially Trane and Trane does not allow just any contractor to install their systems because it’s easier to ensure a good installation. One of the cheapest brands you can buy like Goodman aren't junk, but they are not as reliable. Luxaire is made by Johnson Controls and is middle of the road quality-wise. It would be a little cheaper to go with them, but with the price you were quoted for the A.S. there’s no reason to.

Modulating furnaces do a better job of keeping an even temperature in the entire house than a 2 stage. A 2 stage is a good compromise between a modulating and single stage. I would only go with another modulating if you plan on staying in your house for a long time (more than 5 or 6 years). They’re obviously pricier than a single or two stage, but they are the most efficient so you’ll recover the difference eventually. The price you were quoted sounds great for a 2 stage so you might want to see an estimate from Tom for a modulating.

What you're saying about Trane/AS matches what I'm reading online. Good idea to ask about the pricing on a modulating unit. Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
If your current HVAC guy is good then take his advice.

As long as you have a reputable installer (sounds like you do), you can’t do better.

Tom installed a complete new HVAC system in a new house in 2009. Which he has serviced since then and only got 10 years of service from it before needing to be replaced... and you think he's reputable?

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
If your current HVAC guy is good then take his advice.

As long as you have a reputable installer (sounds like you do), you can’t do better.

Tom installed a complete new HVAC system in a new house in 2009. Which he has serviced since then and only got 10 years of service from it before needing to be replaced... and you think he's reputable?

It WAS a Luxaire system. Nothing in the op leads me to believe he’s dishonest or a bad tech.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:

It WAS a Luxaire system. Nothing in the op leads me to believe he’s dishonest or a bad tech.

Heat exchanger failure in 10 years doesn't provide any clues?

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:

It WAS a Luxaire system. Nothing in the op leads me to believe he’s dishonest or a bad tech.

Heat exchanger failure in 10 years doesn't provide any clues?

I know where you’re going. And I will tell you that we can’t say the repair isn’t needed without putting our hands on the unit ourselves. I’ll give the guy the benefit of the doubt. I’ve replaced a lot of heat exchangers inside and outside of warranty, as I’m sure you have and I’ve also recommended new units to customers that have had problematic units after giving them the option to keep sinking money into a unit that has had other repairs. I will say that if Tom comes out for his yearly service and the unit always magically needs some type of repair when he wasn’t called for a repair then that’s obviously shady.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:

It WAS a Luxaire system. Nothing in the op leads me to believe he’s dishonest or a bad tech.

Heat exchanger failure in 10 years doesn't provide any clues?

It sounds like its a known failure point of the Luxaire model we have... Condensation builds up while the manifold is burning at the lower rate. That condensation pools and corrodes through the heat exchanger.. Am I wrong in thinking that's more an issue with the manufacture than the HVAC company owner (who is also the installation tech)? The reason I'm asking all these questions is because I have a bit of concern over the fact that he was selling an inferior product when we built.



I know where you’re going. And I will tell you that we can’t say the repair isn’t needed without putting our hands on the unit ourselves. I’ll give the guy the benefit of the doubt. I’ve replaced a lot of heat exchangers inside and outside of warranty, as I’m sure you have and I’ve also recommended new units to customers that have had problematic units after giving them the option to keep sinking money into a unit that has had other repairs. I will say that if Tom comes out for his yearly service and the unit always magically needs some type of repair when he wasn’t called for a repair then that’s obviously shady.

Tom gave me the option. Keep putting money into this, or the AS furnace is another option. He said he has replaced approximately 4 of this specific model in the last year due to the heat exchanger design issue. Part of the reason he switched (about 8 years ago) to AS/Trane is because of the quality of the units and support.

I'm mechanically inclined, so I've called and he's walked me through simple diagnostic stuff to keep from costing me a service call. We haven't really had a yearly maintenance call for him to magically find stuff that needs to be replaced since I've on the ball about filter changes and there usually is some type of issue that raises it's head during the year that brings him here... I don't know if its a lemon, but it sure looks like this furnace is a piece of shit. He has also expressed some frustration with Luxaire in the past when he was here replacing the gas valve. We are still waiting on some type of drain pan that has been backordered forever... I've noticed moisture inside the upper portion of the furnace (where the gas valve and manifold are visible).. So it would seem to match the story he's telling me about moisture creating corrosion in the HE..

While his company is highly reviewed locally, the big thing that leads me to trust him, is our builder is one of those companies that has an absolutely phenomenal reputation. I could give person after person or various examples that prove they stand behind their work (even years later). Anyway, Schmidt Bros use Tom. That speaks highly of his quality and work product...

Also, while it was 20 years ago I used to frame houses, for Schmidt Bros' current framing company, and I did remodeling for another company, so I know a little more at least than an average home owner about quality.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: goatboyz,

I just replaced a 10 year old furnace - heat exchanger rusted out. I thought it to be a premature failure.

Local firm that came recommended by folks I trust recommended the Trane. STainless steel heat exchanger with a limited lifetime warranty. Looking at the failed and new unit side by site, the Trane was better quality.

Trane seems to review well. We have a 1996 vintage Lennox, still going strong, just regular checkups.

I’m sure they don’t make our model anymore.

Sorry, not much help with residential products, but sounds like I'd go with the guy you trust. Trane has a good reputation and something I will consider when I replace my 1993 Carrier 90% furnace. As for the question of two stage or modulating, I keep thinking that modulating stuff is pricey when it breaks. Then again, I have minimal experience with such product.I would install a surge protection device on the unit for good measure.

I have a 10 year old Trane. Never an issue other than forgetting to change filters.

Our Trane is 18 years old. We change the filters regularly and have had some basic tune ups a time or two over the years. Outside of that, nothing until last week when we spent $160 for a part and labor when it started only blowing cold air. We live in N. Utah so our furnace is used a lot. I think 18 years is a great ROI. We are finishing our basement and may need to upgrade to a bigger unit, we will be looking for a Trane without the whistles and bells - one reason why I think ours has been so trouble free is it is a basic model.

I have American Standard furnace and A/C that are almost 19 years old. Furnace lost a control board in its first few years but since then nothing major. Pressure feedback switch and igniter a few years ago. On the A/C the copper/aluminum evaporator leaked after about 12 years in service, got it replaced with a Trane all-aluminum evaporator. Most places said "replace it all" but I found someone to just do the evaporator. Since then had a motor starter capacitor go on the outside unit.

Personally I would not buy anything but a single stage "80%" furnace and properly sized A/C unit with fixed displacement compressor. Yeah, more complicated models might be a little more efficient but the tradeoff of complexity and increased chance of failure isn't worth it to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:

It WAS a Luxaire system. Nothing in the op leads me to believe he’s dishonest or a bad tech.

Heat exchanger failure in 10 years doesn't provide any clues?

I've seen lots of mechanical stuff manufactured in 2009-2014 fail prematurely. After the economic downfall in 2008, LOTS/MOST manufacturing companies laid off half of their work force or more and usually the ones getting paid the most and with the most experience and the companies were hanging on by a shoe string. So a lot of technical products manufactured in those years is simply not the same quality as ones made just a few years earlier when the economy was good.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
Personally I would not buy anything but a single stage "80%" furnace and properly sized A/C unit with fixed displacement compressor. Yeah, more complicated models might be a little more efficient but the tradeoff of complexity and increased chance of failure isn't worth it to me.

^^^
There is also a big price difference. I need to calculate the estimated savings vs cost differential and then guesstimate on the reliability difference. I plumbed my basement for a more efficient furnace in the future but I don't know if I'll buy one or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:

Personally I would not buy anything but a single stage "80%" furnace and properly sized A/C unit with fixed displacement compressor. Yeah, more complicated models might be a little more efficient but the tradeoff of complexity and increased chance of failure isn't worth it to me.

Don't know why everybody is scared of a secondary stainless steel heat exchanger, a condensate drain and a plastic inducer and vent instead of metal.
The controls are not more complicated and for most of the major parts, identical.

Their only extracting heat from the steam, which would normally go up the metal exhaust.

I see you're in Indiana... where high efficiency furnaces should be standard protocol.