Let me say that being swept is never a good thing and should never happen, but context does matter.

I was invited to a private gathering for the second time at an undisclosed location in the forest. I, being the father that I am, took my 25 year old daughter (former marine) and my 11 year old son with me. The morning went off well with my daughter scoring hits with my M14 EBR out to 700 yards. Not bad for the second range trip with this rifle.

My son was bored (he was keeping to himself and entertaining himself with his iPhone, but I wanted him to have fun too) so I set up a separate shooting area away from the rifle firing line where I could instruct my son on pistol handling and shooting and where my daughter could shoot my Glock 23. I want my son to have fun out there, not just the adults.

One of the shooters came over to talk to me about reloading and also showed me his Sig P229 which he cleared (with a mag still in) and he ejected a round into the brush. After talking with me, he was digging through the brush for his lost round.

I left my daughter in charge of my son while I retrieve some fresh targets and told her to instruct my son on how to unload and reload his personal Ruger Bearcat 22 single action revolver. I suddenly heard yelling about a major safety violation and how this guy could have died!

I rush over to see what happened and this guy is freaking out about being muzzle swept by my son. He demanded that my son BE DONE SHOOTING TODAY AND THAT HE'S NOT ALLOWED TO SHOOT ANYMORE!.

I asked what happened and the way he made it sound was that my son intentionally pointed a gun at him. I called my daughter over and she objected and said it was a brief muzzle sweep and that she immediately pushed the muzzle in a safe direction and that she told him he needs to always be aware of where the muzzle is pointed. She explained that they had just cleared the pistol of all spent brass. She had bullets in the palm of her hand. The gun was completely empty.

But the guy would not let up at all. He was still just hysterical and demanded that my son be banned from shooting for the day. I said "Look, I'm his father, not you. You tell me the issue and I will discipline my son as I see fit, not you!" My daughter piped up that the gun was not loaded and he snapped back "ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED!"

I said "YES, I GET IT, HE MADE A MISTAKE!"

He also exclaimed that had this happened at an actual range with anyone else, he would have drawn his gun on the offender. Oh, so he'd draw a gun on an 11 year old if it were at an actual shooting range?! What the F-ck ever...

Oh, so we've got a tough guy here. I finally snapped and yelled back "OH, I DIDN'T KNOW I WAS SHOOTING WITH MISTER PERFECT WHO'S NEVER MAD A F'N MISTAKE IN HIS WHOLE LIFE! I'M SORRY, I DIDN'T SEE THE F'N HALO AROUND YOUR F'N HEAD! EXCUSE THE F-CK OUT OF ME!

My son and my daughter were aghast! I don't think they even knew I knew such words. They've never seen me get up in another grown man's face, yet alone yell at another man like that.

At that point, the guy who coordinated the shoot came over to calm things down. I explained to him what happened, and I agree, it never should have happened, but the guy's over the top reaction was a bit excessive. I explained that I set up a private area where I could teach my kids, but he voluntarily made his presence into on our personal training session. He could have told my kids to be aware of where he was. My son later said he didn't even know he was there. There was no table to handle pistols. Just a couple of targets in the grass and ammo on the ground. It was very informal.

At some point he even tried to guilt my kid and me by saying he almost died and that someone could have had to tell his wife and kids that daddy's not coming home ever again.

Now given the fact that my son was calmly crying and he was absolutely shaken, I decided that any further shooting would be unhealthy for the day and we all needed time to chill out and regain our heads. I packed up my stuff and we began the 2 hour trip back off the mountain.

I do want my son to do the right thing, even if he doesn't feel like it, so once everyone calmed down, I did walk him over to the guy and have him apologize for his own actions.

I don't like making a scene and I feel if I were in the guy's shoes, I would have simply moved out of the way as quickly as I could and calmly but sternly tell the father what happened and that he needs to keep a closer eye out on his kid. I probably would have left it at that. I'm not dramatic and I don't like making a scene.

Given the context, what would your reaction have been if you had been swept? What would your reaction have been if you were in my shoes?

Tony

I will agree it sounds like the guy was way over the top, but, at the same time, ISTM there was a failure in supervision over the new, young shooter.

Your daughter's "The gun was not loaded" comment <smh> I presume it has since been explained to her why that only added fuel to the fire?

The end result was right, the process was fucked. The right answer was he's done for the day. He shouldn't have freaked our so much, and you should have closed his day out.

If the above happened, it would have been a lesson, probably a lifelong lesson. Without further details both parties are wrong. Age is not an excuse for breaking four rules. If not able to follow the rules, not ready for the range.

This is probably not the answer you're looking for, but it's not intended to be rude or question you.

Yes, there are always safety NAZIs - and anyone who’s taught enough new Shooter’s has had the unique joy of speaking in calming tones while getting the loaded gun pointed elsewhere - but it also sounds like your son wasn’t ready to be left as unattended as he was.

It may not be an option for you, but, for me, I can’t handle more than 2 new shooters at a time, and only take them when we are alone on the range, and will not teach a couple/siblings at the same time.

I also wouldn’t shoot/be around a guy talking about drawing a gun on someone sweeping them*.

(Within reason. I was at a match where a fellow started having a PTSD “moment” when his gun jammed. He kept sweeping everyone, which started more “PTSD” moments, until a retired NCO got both of them to get their heads out of their asses.)

As a basic pistol and shotgun instructor for a large law enforcement agency, including brand new recruits, ive been swept more times than I can remember.

One thing I know: an over the topic, unhinged, hysterical, shout-filled response doesn’t help the situation.

The time a recruit right next to me let a slug go without intention that impacted the concrete 10 inches in front of my foot didn’t cause me to yell or scream or curse, but it did get the trainee removed. Calmly.

Guns and hysterics make bad bedfellows.

"he would have drawn his gun on the offender"

sounds like a guy I never ever be around, what a douche bag.
gun store commando types.

Fucking drama queen is what that guy was. Life is too short to deal with people like that. Correct your son and move on.

Your boy made a mistake. Nobody died or got injured. The guy was WAY over the top.

That guy was a complete idiot. Just plain and simple. Everything you said and did was perfect for the scenario. Jungle jim dipshit was just looking to make himself into the center of the universe. Good for you to clue him in. These kinds of stories especially with kids involved show just how self centered some people can be. Its distributing. Sorry some clown tried to ruin a really nice outing for you and your family.

He's been shooting for 5 years now at the range we go to, but it's super-structured. There's benches, chamber flags, timers, etc. He's never had a problem there. He rarely uses pistols and his confidence isn't as strong with pistols. He knows the rules, but I think he was more focused on how to operate the revolver than where the muzzle was pointed.

His older sister was nearly shoulder to shoulder with him and on top of it the instant it happened, so he wasn't unattended.

I think my takeaway is to train him by myself until his confidence and motor skills are more second-nature.

On a side-note, I haven't been uninvited from the group, although it may be a while before I shoot with them.

And everyone unanimously agreed that he learned a huge lesson that day and he will never forget that day for the rest of his life. Thankfully, nobody got hurt, at least physically.

Tony.

The guy was over reacting. I like that your daughter was right there and pushed the muzzle away. And drawing his weapon on a 11 year old child is a F'n crime. I also like that you gave that guy a piece of your mind. If anyone could ever make a minor mistake when it comes to firearms, its a youngin. I have seen a few things. Also had a 67 year old, 40 year FFL point a lazer mounted on a small caliber auto pistol at my forehead. I should have raised more hell than I did. Never went back to that gun shop.

The guy sounds over the top.

Oh the other hand, actions have consequences. Shooting privileges getting pulled for a safety violation is kinda what should have happened.

Flip the situation around. Not saying how this is how it went down, but look at it from his perspective:

Your buddy organizes a shoot and invites you out. You make the 2 hour drive up. Another guy brings his kid up to shoot too, and they go off to one side and make their own shooting area while the rest of the group is doing rifles. You go over to make some conversation, and his kid is finger fucking a gun the entire time you are down range. You get swept, so you call the kid out on it. Kid's adult sister gets all defensive about it and gives you attitude about how the guns not loaded. What kinda stupid shit is that? So you call out the Dad, who's supposed to be watching the kid anyway, and he gets up in your face and starts cussing at you right in front of his 11 year old. Real classy, right? Anyway, you would have left, except that you made the two hour drive to hang out with your buddies. If he wanted private range time with his kids, he should have just taken his kids out to on his own. Kid wasn't even into it, was on his phone mostly anyway. They ended up packing up and leaving, but you just wouldn't have felt comfortable shooting knowing that the Dad wasn't enforcing safety rules with his kids.

When we screw up it’s an it could happen to anyone thing. When someone else does they’re a freaking menace. Everybody knows that.

Your son was under adult supervision at the time and it's not like marines aren't trained to shoot with guns.

The gun was unloaded and the sweep was immediately corrected.

The guy overreacted.

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
kid is finger fucking a gun the entire time you are down range.

I should be clear, I wasn't downrange. I went back to the truck to get targets to cover the holes. Nobody was downrange. If you could identify the violation, he broke the 180 degree line.

I was only away from the firing line for about 30 seconds in the opposite direction from the targets. They were only emptying the spent casings from the cylinder. No loading happens while anyone is downrange and nobody handles any firearms when anyone is downrange.

He wasn't disinterested in shooting. Earlier, he was just entertaining himself while I was zeroing rifles and he was patiently waiting his turn. He's been shooing with me enough to let me do my thing and get things ready, then he'll have his turn.

What kind of kid do you want at the range? The one who says, I'm cool, let me know when it's my turn. Or the one who is bouncing around going ooh, can I shoot, let me see, let me see...

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
kid is finger fucking a gun the entire time you are down range.

I should be clear, I wasn't downrange. I went back to the truck to get targets to cover the holes. Nobody was downrange. If you could identify the violation, he broke the 180 degree line.

I was only away from the firing line for about 30 seconds in the opposite direction from the targets. They were only emptying the spent casings from the cylinder. No loading happens while anyone is downrange and nobody handles any firearms when anyone is downrange.

He wasn't disinterested in shooting, he was just entertaining himself while I was zeroing rifles and he was patiently waiting his turn.

Sorry, I was being unclear. I wasn't trying to argue the facts. I was suggesting that you look at the situation from the other guy's perspective. Imagine that's how the guy went home and posted on his local shooting forum or reddit page or whatever.

Like I said, I think he was overreacting. He should have called you out on it and just said, "You gotta keep an eye on your kid, I don't want anyone getting hurt."

Or maybe even, "Hey, we all agreed that these safety rules were important. I think your son should sit out on shooting for a bit and maybe review the safety rules."

If it were a commercial range, the range officer would be well within rights to have you guys removed from the lanes if the range officer wanted. It's still a safety violation, but probably not how I would have handled it.

Fuck that guy.

Pretty much sums it up for me. My reaction would have been similar to yours, if not a bit larger in magnitude. Everyone makes mistakes, especially kids. He turned what should have been a teachable moment into a shit show.

My response to him demanding that your son be done for the day would be that he could choose to go the hell home.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:

your son wasn’t ready to be left as unattended as he was.

Per the original post, benny's son was not left unattended. He was under the supervision of benny's adult daughter, a Marine veteran, who was instructing him on how to unload the revolver (that had empty brass cases in it). The adult daughter was close enough, and involved enough, to immediately push the muzzle to a safe direction.

None of that implies that the young lad was left unattended.

Hard to judge since I wasn't there to see exactly what happened.

But getting 'swept' by a firearm is serious and shouldn't have happened.
Your daughter's response that 'it wasn't loaded' wouldn't have calmed me down.
In fact, that would have probably increased my concern.

Handling a firearm, especially when there's people in the area such as a public range, is an activity that requires all of your attention.
Firearms are completely unforgiving.

There's a young man in my life, and I started taking him shooting at somewhere around your son's age, maybe a bit younger.

In the beginning I hovered over him and made damn sure he handled the firearm safely, never giving him a chance to make a mistake. I would hand a loaded handgun to him and remind him to watch the muzzle and keep it pointed downrange at all times, and keep his finger out of the trigger guard until pointing downrange. I was always close enough to physically intervene if needed, especially if we were at a public range.

As my confidence in his abilities increased, I gave him more latitude to start loading the guns, unloading, etc. But I still watched him like a hawk for a long time. It takes a lot of practice and repetition to master safe gun handling, and the required maturity and focus comes at different ages for different people.

There are plenty of adults that don't know the first thing about safe gun handling, so mistakes aren't limited to kids.

Having said all that, I would not have acted in the manner that you say the guy in question did, over a mere quick sweep.
I'm more in control of my emotions than that, and would have to be really freaked out before I lost my shit.

I'm not sure how I would have reacted, but likely would have calmly corrected the young man and perhaps talk to your daughter to judge her abilities to supervise him. Since she was in charge of him, her reaction to the incident would be of interest. As I've already said, her stating that the gun wasn't loaded would not have impressed me, at all.

Glad nothing serious came of the safety lapse. Everyone has made mistakes somewhere along the line, whatever the sport or pursuit you're engaged in. It's just that this sport is especially unforgiving.

Talk with him and make sure he understands the mistake he made. Don't sugar-coat it, but don't beat him up over it, either. We want him to continue to go shooting, learn proper gun safety, and one day take his son shooting!