I know it's not right and should not happen but I've been swept many times by both novices and folks who are very familiar with firearm safety..... and I'm sure I've done it (at least once).... in the OP's story when they guy said he would pull his weapon on someone who accidentally swept him.... that both tells what kind of person he is and answers who really at fault in the conflict.

The best thing about the four rules in safe firearm handling is one has to violate at least two of them for a bad thing to happen. Violate just one at a time and everyone should still be able to go home happy.

Some people have a hard time being a rational human being and this guy seems to be one. I'm an RSO and the way it was handled by you and your daughter is fine. The purpose is to instruct the shooter so they understand the implications of safety and they stop the incorrect action and it sounds like your son got that. Safety issues can be fatal but the reality is that they happen frequently, I only have issues when the violator does not stop acting unsafe. It also sounds like Mr drama queen has a big mouth and likes attention.

quote:

he would have drawn his gun on the offender.

As an RSO, at that point he would have been banned from the range.

Yes, the 11 year old made a mistake but yelling and screaming will not help the situation.

quote:

Originally posted by flesheatingvirus:
Fuck that guy.

Pretty much sums it up for me. My reaction would have been similar to yours, if not a bit larger in magnitude. Everyone makes mistakes, especially kids. He turned what should have been a teachable moment into a shit show.

My response to him demanding that your son be done for the day would be that he could choose to go the hell home.

Bingo, well said!

Honestly, I think that making the boy be done shooting for the day based upon what was described as happening would also be over the top. It sounds like the sweep was immediately corrected and only occurred for a fraction of a second. This wasn’t a well defined indoor range with barriers between shooting positions, etc. it was an ad hoc setup outdoors. From what the OP is describing, I absolutely do not see this as an egregious safety violation.

Also, I hate when people say something like, “all Guns are always loaded,” because it simply isn’t true. I have no problem treating guns as if they are loaded, but saying all guns are always loaded is technically inaccurate and in my opinion promotes negative connotations for those that aren’t familiar with firearms. If all guns were truly always loaded then there would be no safe way to take them apart for cleaning, service, etc. Saying such things makes gun owners sound stupid, as if we aren’t able to be trusted to follow procedures to make a machine safe for certain operations. Honestly, this guy sounds like someone that I’d rather not have around my child when I’m instructing them about firearms even if he didn’t blow up and lose his temper. I think if he uses such absolute terms around new shooters that he’s doing our sport a tremendous disservice.

The second he said he would have drawn down on your kid he lost all credibility.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
Also, I hate when people say something like, “all Guns are always loaded,” because it simply isn’t true.

Agree. If it were true Glock owners in particular would never, ever disassemble their guns for cleaning or any other purpose.

I could go on and on about firearms safety rules, especially the notion that there are only four (“the” four), but I’ll just say that far too many people believe that because they can recite them by rote without a lot of thought such as “they’re always loaded” that they know all there is to know about firearms safety.

As for guns, yes they are dangerous objects if handled improperly; that’s why we have so many safety rules. But the only way to be absolutely, positively certain that we will never be around someone who violates a rule is to never be around someone (including ourselves) who is handling a gun. That doesn’t mean we should ignore such violations, but there are reasonable and unreasonable ways of reacting to and correcting them. I’ve been teaching people about firearms and many other subjects for over 50 years and I’ve never once felt that I’d get a lesson across better by screaming at someone or by reducing him to tears.

I was a Small Arms Instructor in the service and when I was a cop I was swept repeatedly, by other cops…shheeesh.

Dude lost any credibility when he said he would shoulda coulda…

I saw a RO get swept while a shooter was firing in USPSA, but the RO had gotten into the shooters way and it was the ROs fault. Shooter was not DQd. There was a safety stand down for a few minutes.

This is why I only go shoot at my range and can get a shooting bay, no one else will inadvertently sweep me or my family.

Presumably, the guy was invited as well.

Did you ask if it was ok to bring your son and daughter? Did anybody else bring their kids? How big of a group of people? What was discussed by the group prior to shooting getting started? Were folks introduced to one another? Were shooting areas discussed? I’m curious what people’s expectations were.

“I want my son to have fun out there, not just the adults.”
“My son later said he didn't even know she was there.”

If no introductions were made and no one else knew your daughter was a Marine, then the guy was a bully who jumped at the opportunity to prove it when he saw a young woman with a preteen boy off on their own. Your son not knowing he was there is not on your son or daughter. Like you mentioned, he should have made himself known when he entered their area. He set them up for failure.

It doesn’t sound like this was a family event. The case could be made that you are responsible for your guests and you weren’t there to see what happened. Perhaps your daughter could have been sent to the truck to fetch the targets allowing you to stay with your son. I’m not blaming you or your family, but rather thinking out loud how to avoid people like that guy in the future.

Life is full of Facebook drama queens.

Muzzle discipline is the one thing I’ll send you home for. But, there’s a calm, and rational way to handle it. This dirtbag isn’t it.

That dude just didn’t have his ass beat enough when he was a child.

sounds like everyone over-reacted

in retrospect you should not have left your son unattended

glad no one was hurt -- time to move on

-----------------------------------

Learning experience for your kid. Drive home why there was an issue and the importance of always being aware of the muzzle and how dangerous guns are.

I, myself, have drawn down on hundreds of folks who have swept me and left a trail of bodies in three states of those I had to shoot. I haven’t had to plug a kid yet though…. Yet. In case your sarcasm meter isn’t working what I am trying to say is other guy was a Delta Bravo in the highest regard. Jackass.

Like I said just use as a learning experience for your son and move on.

Christ has that dude EVER been to a gun shop or gun show. Jesus he would have to walk the area at low ready in preparation for all the people he would need to draw down on. Did I mention….jackass.

Considering it was a kid, yeah he probably over reacted. But some people have bad days. Some people more going on that you may realize.

Having worked a bunch of years at a very large, busy public range, I often have to explain things to people in a way they didn't see it. People will often say to me "I made one little mistake and the RO freaked out on me." I tell them, you need to understand, your one little mistake was his 17th little mistake of the morning. The 152nd little mistake on the week so far and etc, etc.

The guy is clearly a wannabe badass. You did well not punching him in the face imo.

He could have irreparably hurt your kids passion for firearms. In fact, it will be interesting to see how your kid reacts when you want to take him shooting the next time. I'm sure you will handle that well but I wouldn't be surprised if he's reluctant at first.

As far as muzzle sweeps, they're pretty far down the list of violations imo. Not saying they're just acceptable, but they happen A LOT. Firearms safety is really a result of layers of redundancy in training so that when one breaks a rule, the other keep things safe. Because rule breakages are inevitable whether you're at the range, at the LGS, in the field, in combat, etc.

If I had a nickle for everytime I've been swept, I would have more nickels.

I do not like it one bit, but I know the context of each incident, and "freaking out" does nothing useful.

The response to each should be in a manner that reinforces proper practice to become good discipline.

Nancy over reacted and I would be more concerned about that individual with a loaded gun than your son.

The only "critique" I have, and it is fully Monday morning quarterbacking, is your reaction.

I understand it, although, that guy provoked it, things could have gone badly if he continued his hysterics.

He should have known better than to entered into there area without announcing he was there. Everyone is ultimately responsible for their own safety, and he failed to announce, which may have prevented the incident.

And, no, your daughter's remark is not off, if it had been me, that would have reduced my anxiety moment, knowing that it was in fact, unloaded.

But that's an arguable point that I would not press on another, just me.

I do believe your son can learn a lot from the whole thing, from awareness of how fast conditions can change, what is and is not in one's control, how other people can become unreasonable quickly, and how to defuse a "hot" situation, as well as not letting such outbursts to impact or create a future "stressor" in ones life.

I agree that this went from being a teachable situation to a spectacle. Of course, there are rules for a reason, but this guy sounds like a gigantic pussy.

A few years ago I was handling an MPX at the my LGS. Clerk removed it from the rack, cleared it, then put it on the display case for me to handle. I picked it up and was simply looking at the lines of it, I wasn't even handling it as if I were going to shoot it, the gun was pointed perpendicular to me down the show room, one hand on the stock the other on the handguard, basically cradling the gun. An older gentlemen walked in to the line of the gun and when he noticed the muzzle, he jumped out of the way as if an RPG was headed his way. It was like a John Woo movie. It seemed a little dramatic to me, but I understand not being comfortable looking at the barrel of a gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:
in retrospect you should not have left your son unattended

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:
His older sister was nearly shoulder to shoulder with him and on top of it the instant it happened, so he wasn't unattended.

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:
my 25 year old daughter (former marine) and my 11 year old son with me.

No further comment about understanding the situation necessary.

He is an overreacting douche. I hope he hasn't put your son off of a fun sport, and constitutional right. That would be the only tragedy coming out of that day.

Go over the rules again with your son, and don't leave him to it even for a minute the next couple times you're there. Edit- I missed the key detail that your daughter is 25! but still I will stand by the don't leave him unattended by you comment. Sis was more than enough supervision though. sorry that was a TLDR issue I get sometimes.

find some fun targets for him if you can, and see what he can do. and remind him that he should be competent with firearms as he grows from boy to teen to man. Coach him and remind him that those uncharacteristic words from you came because the other man was wrong.

I'm old enough to remember the days BEFORE THE INTERNET. Back then getting swept wasn't worth freaking out about. I also remember at that time you didn't walk around a range with a loaded firearm. In addition if you wanted to show your firearm to another shooter you ALWAYS had it unloaded with the breech obviously OPEN. So, WTF was Mr. Safety thinking when he walked over to your area with a LOADED firearm with the breech closed. I'll also point out that Mr. Safety wouldn't have been looking for that bullet if he and followed the rule that firearms must be unloaded with the breech open when not at the firing line.

So, yeah Mr. Safety was way over the line in his reaction but he was also a violator of one of the Primary Rules for Safety at most shooting ranges.

Wait, P229 guy and “SAFETY” guy are the same guy? What a giant ass!

We should all welcome youth to our sport/hobby.

Acting like a Douche is not how an adult does that.
A kid will screw up, creating a "look at me I am being violated" moment is a self serving act by this entitled prick.

I hope your son learns a lesson on how not be a pussy later in life.

HK Ag