I did time there too, did alot work on the CIV/MIL side. Alot of things we tried to do IOT improve the place just never took off. IMHO it'll wind up just like it was. I'm interested in what the Chinese are up to in ASTAN and Pakistan and how that will turn out.

I wounder how many wars Trump and his team will have to end before they get put up for a prize.

Having served in both Iraq and Afghanistan I am relieved we will bring everyone home, but saddened for all I saw lost there. Fully agree when we need to strike someone with military force so be it, but the nation building hearts and minds stuff needs to end forever.
I could cite many examples of our efforts on the nation building/ humanitarian and how they ended as dismal failures, but won’t waste the space or conjure up the painful memories

Any of us here who have dealt with Afghans in Afghanistan probably don't have very good opinions on them. They're savages living in the 12th century.

When I was in basic training, I had a DS who absolutely hated Iraq, hated the country and the people with the utmost hatred. I never understood how someone could hate a country so much but learned shortly after.

I worked with a guy nineteen years ago who insisted the only solution was to “glass” the place. At the time, I thought he was nuts. Now I wonder.

quote:

Originally posted by SSgt USMC/Vet:

quote:

Originally posted by dave7378:
I'm not sure how to feel about this.

Same for me.

Yes, same here. I don't trust them as far as I can throw this house I am sitting in.

I have also read a good deal of the Koran. Nothing I recall from it mandates that they have to honor any deal with us unbelievers.

The only thing they understand is force, so if they understand if they attack us, or our troops, we will obliterate them, they MIGHT leave us alone.

There is some hope that they understand what we are capable of, and that they are not immune to reaction should they violate the terms of the agreement.

We went in, as I recall, with two objectives: to go after Bin Ladin and to change the regime there so that anti-US terrorism would have one fewer state sponsor.

One objective down for sure, and it would seem that the other might have been achieved as well. At a higher cost than optimal, for sure, due at least in part to our 'ally' Pakistan's actions/inactions.

But nothing in that country itself was/is worth any further attention, or expenditure of life/treasure, IMO.

Did the US really have any vital interests whether or not the locals grow their poppies, tear themselves apart, live under Sharia and mistreat one another according to whatever ancient rules they choose? Or, do we file it as 'sucks to be them' and move on?

As long as they leave us alone, we can look from afar and be thankful we have a Constitutional government, a superior way of life, and a powerful military that supports both.

Seems to me another promise of Candidate Trump has been delivered on.

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:
Fully agree when we need to strike someone with military force so be it, but the nation building hearts and minds stuff needs to end forever.

Agree wholeheartedly with this and Rhino's earlier post. I also think we should exit any international agreement that speaks to 'targeting civilians' or collateral damage.

If the Jihadis go into a civilian area or a mosque, level it. Hit them hard and without remorse if they sponsor terrorism, but cut this crap trying to go back in and rebuild them and trying to make a 12th century tribe accept 21st century ideals and democracy. You can't force civilization on people who don't even know what it is, let alone willing to fight and die for it - which is what it takes for a civilization to rise up and endure.

This agreement is just political theatre so we can get the hell outof dodge. No one seriously believes anyone over there will change. Periodically we will slap them with a GBU as needed. Eventually they will runout of ways to hurt us and go back to killing each other.

Stepping back, and up about 10,000 feet, I hope this win for Trump finally puts the U. S. mindset back on the idea that we will only engage militarily when our goal is to win. No more pulled-punches wars!

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:
Fully agree when we need to strike someone with military force so be it, ...

With such overwhelming devastation they'll think twice before doing/allowing it again. I'm thinking along the lines of that MOAB we dropped on that Taliban cave complex a while ago.

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:
... but the nation building hearts and minds stuff needs to end forever.

We used to do the "hearts and minds" thing with Radio Free Europe. (Looks...) Looks like we still do. That should be the extent of it.

I have read articles (and talked to several vets who served in Afghanistan that worked with me). All of them said that a decisive military victory would require a minimum of 200,000 (at least) troops and at least another 5 to 10 years. Besides the lives lost, it would cost many billions of dollars. The American people will never support that. Never. Trump is doing the right thing. Trump was right in getting rid of Bolton.

Bring them home, or cut them loose and end this thing for good.

We may as well leave, we've been hamstrung all along by cowards and miscreants in policy positions.

Halfassing wars is a fools game. Let's quit being fools.

Just bring them home and never return. I don't care what happens there and most places over there.

I've run out of fucks to give.

I’ve been reading a bunch of comments on various military FaceBook websites decrying the agreement between the USA and the Taliban quasi-government for reduction of US military forces from Afghanistan. A lot of the usual “We-Hate-Donald Trump” folks and other armchair generals are saying its bad.

OK, so maybe it isn’t “unicorns shitting rainbows“, but nothing ever is. But it is the best that there can be because it ends the USA’s involvement. Yes, I understand the “sunk costs” (American treasure expended, and American blood spilt), but do YOU want to really stay there for 100 years, with more sons/daughters, brothers/sisters, fathers/mothers to come back in boxes? As that is what’s going to happen the longer we stay there. No matter how long the USA stays there and attempts “nation building”, Afghanistan will NEVER be like the USA.

The USA is a product of 3000+ years of Western Europe history: Greek democracy; Roman culture; Anglo-Saxon common law; Medieval life; Renaissance advancement; and European Enlightenment; all culminating in American Liberty. You can NOT impart that into an alien culture in 20 years, nor even 100 years. It must be lived and experienced by those there in order to be understood.

“But, but, we did that with Germany and Japan after WW2”. No we didn’t; we did NOT do it with those who had been in charge in Germany and Japan. We obliterated the culture from which they came, and EXECUTED those leaders; not to mentioning leveling and laying waste to cities and killing millions of civilians in the process. Is that what you want? It would take total military occupation and American pro-consul governance, with drastic measures as a response to civilian opposition. America no longer has the stomach for such actions. When those who are there say they want democracy, it’s not what we perceive as democracy. Their version of “democracy” is all about the “toys” (technology) that western democracy has wrought over the past 3000+ years.

Personally, I don’t give a flying rat’s ass for what those raggedy-headed, goat-humping, camel jockeys do in their own country. I just want American troops home; let someone else pick-up what Rudyard Kipling called the “White man’s burden”. And if that happens to be Russia or China or someone else, let them get sucked into that cesspool; and good luck with that.

Well-said, 2BT!

95 percent of Americans long ago checked out on the war in Afghanistan. Unless you have a family member there you haven't given it any thought in years. Doubt a "peace treaty" will politically help Trump since most thought we should have just left years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:
I worked with a guy nineteen years ago who insisted the only solution was to “glass” the place. At the time, I thought he was nuts. Now I wonder.

I agree, convert their "country" into a glass parking lot so they can go back to killing one another with spears and swords for goats and land. I bet some of them remember that way of life and would like go back to it. There's a lot of merit for a "simpler" way of life, for both them and us, so let's help them get there quickly, like overnight. With the exception of our good friend Israel, I'm finished with the Middle East. If they hurt us, lob one over and call it a day. If they do it again, lob another over. Eventually they will run out of sand to convert to glass.

quote:

Originally posted by Fundman:
95 percent of Americans long ago checked out on the war in Afghanistan. Unless you have a family member there you haven't given it any thought in years. Doubt a "peace treaty" will politically help Trump since most thought we should have just left years ago.

This is very true. When I deployed there last year I can't tell you how many people were confused as they "didn't realize we still had troops over there."

Just another sign of the military/civilian disconnect.

quote:

Originally posted by Fundman:
95 percent of Americans long ago checked out on the war in Afghanistan. Unless you have a family member there you haven't given it any thought in years.

Agreed, most dumped it from their memory after we toppled the Taliban in Dec '01.

We should have left by summer '02.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
History repeats itself with a non-surprising culmination of Vietnam 2.0.

How many years until we're doing a mass evacuation from the roof of the Embassy in Kabul?

Vietnam was UNWINNABLE.
(Our success there depended upon South Vietnam creating and maintaining a viable government capable of resisting the North. This did not, and could never, happen.)

Afghanistan is UNWINNABLE.
(Our success there depends upon the Afgans creating and maintaining a viable government capable of resisting the Taliban/Al Queda/Etc. This did not, and could never, happen.)

Sometimes, the best thing to do is cut our losses and bring our boys home. The alternative is to continue hemorrhaging blood and treasure for an unattainable goal.

quote:

About 15 years late.

Amen to that. I don't care if we 'win' or not. Bring our troops home.

And I hope this makes our politicians realize once and for all that this 'nation-building' nonsense doesn't work.

Hopeful that this gets our men and women out.

God Speed to those that served.