quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
I'll be glad to have our troops out of there, but anybody who thinks the Taliban won't turn right around, take over, and resume turning Afghanistan into their view of an ideal Islamic state is delusional.

I’m cautiously optimistic. I think this agreement is a win for President Trump that the Dems will have a hard time dealing with.

I guess we've all read of the peace deal with the Taliban. In recent years, I've attempted to learn more about the Islamic mindset that affects not just the Middle East, but much of the World. Along with some Hadith and Sira, I read an English translation of the Quran. It became apparent that any cooperation, agreement, pledge, treaty, etc. the Taliban may sign with the US is not binding to the Afghans. In Islam, when dealing with an unbeliever/infidel, a believer is permitted to do or say anything that advances Islam. This agreement, no matter how structured, will benefit Islam and the Taliban in particular. When we leave, tribal warlords will fight among themselves for power, and will run the area as they have for almost 1400 years. Just the same as they would have, if we had never sent and lost a single American there. This agreement is just another "Peace with Honor" deal to save political face. Be that as it may,we needed to be gone from there years ago, and quit feeding Americans into a grinder that left many thousands wounded, maimed, or dead, and will leave Afghanistan unchanged.......ymmv

This message has been edited. Last edited by: rock185,

We had the mission all wrong from the start. None of this nation-building horseshit.

If it removes our troops (and lets us destroy any remaining US funded /built facilities and equipment) I guess it is good news.
Will the Taliban abide by the treaty? Nope.
No more money, no more American lives for any of these savages.

So glad we are leaving that sewer and just hope we don't have to return. We've spent millions, maybe billions trying to train an army that doesn't want us there, won't train or go on patrol in dangerous areas, and has no will to fight to save their own asses and country. How long do you think it will take for them to do nothing while the taliban takes over?

A lot of parallels with Vietnam but a goal that is even harder to identify. Very sad considering all we have lost there but another ten or twenty years wouldn't change the outcome.
We went there as an emotional reaction with the best intentions but no long term realistic plan or specific goal. We weren't the first and probably not the last.
Let the Russians and Chinese deal with it now, it's in their back yard.

I'm not sure how to feel about this.

I'm not sure how I feel about this either.

On one hand we need to be done and out of there. It's been a drain on resources and cost lives for too long.

On the other hand, I don't trust the Taliban in any definition of the word. They are evil and exist to wage war. They may be quiet for a while but they will find a target to pursue if left alone. The biggest advantage of being there, was we were fighting them there.

The Taliban is not going to become something that is against their nature. They're not. It's not going to happen. They are what they are.

The US may leave, stay, fight, or not fight. The Taliban is a constant, like the law of the conservation of energy and matter of the universe. It doesn't matter what we do.

If not us, than who? Every action is only nullified by an equal and opposite reaction.

I don't have any answers, and I don't know what the solution to this problem is, but I do know one thing.

Darkness is only defeated by the light. Period.

H&K-Guy

The Taliban (and the underlying culture) are unlikely to change, true, but for almost 20 years we tried to help out the country. We were naive and overly optimistic, but we gave it a shot; and we gave AQ a pretty good beat down to the extent they mounted no major attacks against us from Afghanistan like they were free to do prior to 9/11.

Radical Islamists are still out there, just as they were a part of a Islamic culture even before the war, but if the alternative was to allow AQ to flourish in Afghanistan and attack us any time they wanted, then the lives and treasure spent accomplished something of direct benefit to our citizens. Our service members sacrificed a lot for us along the way.

Glad we are out of there. I hope we have learned to pick our fights more carefully. But hiding our heads in the sand won’t work.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
I'll be glad to have our troops out of there, but anybody who thinks the Taliban won't turn right around, take over, and resume turning Afghanistan into their view of an ideal Islamic state is delusional.

I really don't give a fuck what those mindless savages do over there.

Its just time to stop wasting lives, time, and resources pretending that we can ever change the way they think.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
I'll be glad to have our troops out of there, but anybody who thinks the Taliban won't turn right around, take over, and resume turning Afghanistan into their view of an ideal Islamic state is delusional.

I really don't give a fuck what those mindless savages do over there.

Its just time to stop wasting lives, time, and resources pretending that we can ever change the way they think.

Agreed, but we are not talking about ancient tribal blood feuds over the plundering of goats and women, anymore. The modern world has left that ridiculousness behind in favor of terror on our shores. Fight them there, or fight them here.

I don't know what the solution is. I do know the last 20 years have not been the answer. Something else must take place.

H&K-Guy

quote:

Originally posted by dave7378:
I'm not sure how to feel about this.

Same for me.

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:
Agreed, but we are not talking about ancient tribal blood feuds over the plundering of goats and women, anymore.

Believe it or not, that's 95% of what they do over there. Then there is the systemic sexual abuse of boys, corruption, drug trade.

quote:

The modern world has left that ridiculousness behind in favor of terror on our shores. Fight them there, or fight them here.

Iran supports terrorists and we aren't fighting them there.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:
Agreed, but we are not talking about ancient tribal blood feuds over the plundering of goats and women, anymore.

Believe it or not, that's 95% of what they do over there. Then there is the systemic sexual abuse of boys, corruption, drug trade.

quote:

The modern world has left that ridiculousness behind in favor of terror on our shores. Fight them there, or fight them here.

Iran supports terrorists and we aren't fighting them there.

We probably agree on many points, but in the end, war has not been the answer. Unfortunately, I don't believe peace is either.

Which brings us back to darkness and light...

H&K-Guy

I am of the mind that we should have bloodied their noses and blacked their eyes in such a manner that they knew we weren't fucking around. Unfortunately I am not sure that there is anything beyond death that will convince an Afghan that we aren't fucking around. I am also convinced that 19yrs of trying to play by western nice nice "rules" was not going to accomplish anything in Afghanistan.

It may have been a good idea for the American political leaders of 2001 to read "A Bright Shining Lie: John Paul Vann and America in Vietnam" There is good stuff in that book dealing with the American inability to understand the culture of a nation we are interested in changing. Without that understanding, we are always doomed to stumble if not fall flat on our faces.

I am of the mind that this is a case where we should be learning from our experience and not wringing our hands over what was "wasted" or what could have been. That seems to be a lesson from vietnam that took us too long to figure out afterwards, let's at least not make that mistake again.

From my perspective having supported from the air in 2001-2 and again in 2006-07, we did hurt them badly in 2001. We broke them very badly with SF & Airpower but we should have left in 2002 instead of letting big Army & USAF come in and fuck it up. Unfortunately we were unsuccessful in getting Bin Laden initially, so I think that was the big draw to staying past 2002 but it was a mistake. At most we should have kept a SOF base w/ airpower there and only done anti-terrorist missions, not this nation building bullshit.

In 06-07 I became certain that, long term, both Afghanistan and Iraq were lost causes and a huge waste of lives and resources. I’m confident that time has proven me right in a lot of ways much to my dismay. I had enjoyed the profession of arms up to that point but couldn’t stomach the waste of it all and left the service with absolutely zero regrets.

In the end a country and people have to standup to make the change internally and Afghanistan will be a marginal country for the next 50-100 years, if not more.

quote:

Originally posted by dave7378:
I'm not sure how to feel about this.

I know how I feel about it.

A little background. I was there as an advisor 2010-11 with the helo squadron in Kabul (why a fixed wing pilot was sent to advise a rotary wing unit no one will ever know). I became pretty good friends with some of the Hungarian Mi-35 pilots who had been there before. According to them nothing had changed in the 3 years since they were there the first time.

One week after I left one of the Afghans I helped train killed 9 advisors. I knew 7 of them. The 2 I did not know showed up the day before I left.

Fuck Afghanistan.

RHINOWSO, I appreciate hearing from someone who served there. A family member also served there. The first thing he told me about Afghanistan was, "It's tribal". Like so many others, my war was Vietnam. It too reverted to what it would have been if we'd never sent one soldier there, a communist dictatorship. Our political masters assured us that we would never again get into an undeclared war, with no clear and consistent picture of what winning would look like, and no viable exit strategy.

Well, here we are. With another intractable enemy. An enemy who will not change, and whose definition of peace, freedom, human rights, terrorism, etc. is much different than that of the Western representatives they are dealing with. I mean, the Taliban reduced violence for a week, and now we sign a ineffectual peace deal with them? The US is obviously desperate for any kind of a deal that avoids admitting that we were unsuccessful in our efforts to change Afghanistan into anything other than what it has been since the 7th. Century......

Herkdriver, Hadn't seen your post when I was composing mine. Very much appreciate your input too.

Having left 2 pints of AB positive and part of my Patella Tendon on the Afghan plains...I say we call it a win and go home.....


18Z50...TF Dagger Alumni.