I want to know more about this billion record database.

If it is nothing more than a scanned digital image of the 4473 pages, I don't see how that would be different from making a microfiche of the paper 4473.

If, however, the image is run through character recognition, or there is functionality allowing a search for records from the same individual, that is a different case.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
I wonder if auditing an FFL's bound book each year is counted as a trace. My FFL and gunsmith tells me they just want to see guns that get logged in also get logged out as a sale. Is that a trace?

no

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
I wonder if auditing an FFL's bound book each year is counted as a trace. My FFL and gunsmith tells me they just want to see guns that get logged in also get logged out as a sale. Is that a trace?

That’s not a trace.
A trace is where a department has a gun in hand and runs a “trace” thru ATF.
ATF sends a call to the known distributor where the gun was wholesaled from.
Wholesaler tells which FFL they sold it to.
ATF calls that FFL.
FFL gets call from ATF and gives him a specific serial number.
FFL looks it up in hi 4473 and gives the info the ATF wants…usually it’s the buyer, address, dob, what other guns were sold on that 4473, and phone number if the FFL has it.

Thats a trace. At the end the ATF will contact the originating department if it will help their case or if the Feds are gonna take over the case.

to clarify just a bit,

Police or some agency do a trace,
call tracing center, and gives them the firearms info,

ATF calls Manufacturer or importer
then distributor, (if there was one)
then dealer,
the dealer is given the make/model/serial
you are expected to scan and send in a copy of the 4473 very quickly, like that day

exceptions are made for folks that travel to gunshows etc, time wise



then, the ATF, and or the local and State Police go to the buyers address,

I think the Dept's run them thru NICS for stolen reports as well



ATF told me that in most cases, if a gun was sold new, in the past 10 years or so, it stands a good chance of being traced to the current owner, but if it was sold or traded off, the trail usually stops cold,

I think Tirod's post is fundamentally correct. The insidious part of any disarmament effort would be the 'ratting out' of gun owners by neighbors, so called friends and even our family members. This is the very basis of red flag laws, they depend on Finks to operate. And most of us probably know a likely 'Karen' who would turn us in in a New York second.

Of course others, pissed off by gestapo tactics, would lie their asses off to authorities and help hide weapons. A lot like the mixed reactions during Prohibition.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
I want to know more about this billion record database.

If it is nothing more than a scanned digital image of the 4473 pages, I don't see how that would be different from making a microfiche of the paper 4473.

If, however, the image is run through character recognition, or there is functionality allowing a search for records from the same individual, that is a different case.

I was told thru unofficial sources that all the records would be eventually scanned/converted to micorfiche,


I find it interesting that the number of records turned in was so high, guessing a lot of businesses went under, or changed licenses?

quote:

Originally posted by sreding:

quote:

920,664,765 firearm purchase records

So when they say there are around 300 million (or whatever BS number they use) firearms privately owned in the US it looks like they're off by 600million. 3 per every person in this country.

nope,


generally most folks buy one at a time,

sometimes there are multiple sales on one form,

and of those 920,xxx,xxx forms, how many are on the same firearm?

as in you buy one today, do a 4473
sell or trade it to a dealer in a few years and the new buyer does a 4473

etc etc

small percentage, likely,

quote:

ATF calls Manufacturer or importer
then distributor, (if there was one)
then dealer,
the dealer is given the make/model/serial
you are expected to scan and send in a copy of the 4473 very quickly, like that day

Granted I have only had 3 or 4 traces done over the past 31 years. Never have they asked for a copy of the 4473.

quote:

Originally posted by 83v45magna:
I think Tirod's post is fundamentally correct. The insidious part of any disarmament effort would be the 'ratting out' of gun owners by neighbors, so called friends and even our family members. This is the very basis of red flag laws, they depend on Finks to operate. And most of us probably know a likely 'Karen' who would turn us in in a New York second.

Snitches end up in ditches.

quote:

Originally posted by p08:

quote:

ATF calls Manufacturer or importer
then distributor, (if there was one)
then dealer,
the dealer is given the make/model/serial
you are expected to scan and send in a copy of the 4473 very quickly, like that day

Granted I have only had 3 or 4 traces done over the past 31 years. Never have they asked for a copy of the 4473.

You can give them the info over the phone.

My calls always go to VM. So they usually ask to FAX or email the 4473.

BREAKING NEWS.....

Almost a year to the day.

https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...0601935/m/1700038664

Can’t wait until another youtuber needs clicks six months down the road.

The link above is to a post from 2 years ago.

While the initial story at the link is from Feb 2020, the video at the link is dated 31 January 2022

The report of the ATF having a database of 920,664,765 firearm purchase records is very current

No matter how you try to put a dress and lipstick on it, it’s the same pig. It seems to get trotted out for clicks.

To me, it’s even worse that it’s TWO years old and trying to be passed off as BREAKING NEWS.

jljones

I don't understand your point.

The report that ATF has 920,664,765 firearm records is less than a week old

Did you not look at the link I provided? The exact same thing was “reported” two years ago. Hence the two year old link I posted.

This is recycled “news” that was not even “news” two years ago.

EDIT- Ohhh, I see the problem. GOA deleted their original two year old information and slapped a new date on it to make it appear fresh, and pretend they didn’t do the same fear porn two years ago. We discussed this two years ago In the thread I linked.

What I wonder about every time I fill out a 4473 form is how they can ask some of the questions on it. Not the ones that the answer is yes for the first one and then no for all the rest... I got that down... but the ones asking your race, sex, and where you were born and such... they just recently added the question of whether you were latino ..... if this form stays with the FFL... what in world good is that information and on top of that none of it has anything to do with qualifying you to own a firearm. those question would get you sued on an potential employees application.

quote:

Did you not look at the link I provided

Yes. The link references a site that has been updated. Follow your own links.

Watch the video you appear to think is 2 years old. It talks about events that just happened.

Pls share your direct link that says 2 years ago ATF has a database of 920,664,765 firearm purchase records

if this is the link you are thinking about, note the top report is from Feb 2020, but the reports and video below are from Jan 2022

quote:

Originally posted by p08:

quote:

ATF calls Manufacturer or importer
then distributor, (if there was one)
then dealer,
the dealer is given the make/model/serial
you are expected to scan and send in a copy of the 4473 very quickly, like that day

Granted I have only had 3 or 4 traces done over the past 31 years. Never have they asked for a copy of the 4473.

my first trace, was a firearm sold to another dealer,

that one was a simple give the lady the name and FFL number over the phone,


the rest needed the 4473,

it's fairly common

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
I wonder if auditing an FFL's bound book each year is counted as a trace. My FFL and gunsmith tells me they just want to see guns that get logged in also get logged out as a sale. Is that a trace?

There were widespread reports of IAI's copying pages out of FFL bound books a couple years back outside of normal audits.

quote:

ATF has a database of 920,664,765 firearm purchase records

4473's started in 1968 with the GCA,


so 55 yrs of gun sales at FFL's, and how many of them closed, changed licenses, etc etc, ??

each time the shops closed, or changed licenses, the 4473's were turned in,

all went to the tracing center,


surely some shops burnt down, flooded out, etc etc and have lost, damaged etc paperwork,

surely some, esp in the early period of the 4473 did not comply

but that number of records at the Tracing center is probably close to if not actual,



and matters not, since the law requiring the 4473's has been around since 1968



the big deal is the extension of records keeping time,

I don't recall anything published about having all of them scanned , other than microfiche, into a giant data base,



+, think about this, the NFA registry is notorious for not being accurate, or complete,
esp on the older stuff,

do you (as in anyone) think the gov't can get all of those records scanned and filed?

remember all were handwritten up until a relatively recenltly when online and printable/filable 4473's came online