This came from a VCDL email I just received and it had a link to the article and a place to voice your opposition...

https://gunowners.org/na02152020/

Done, thank you.

I've said it before and will say it again. I don't trust the ATF to stop tracking guns after the 10 year mandatory max limit. I believe that the electronic 4473 system is ripe for abuse.

I trust the ATF as far as I can throw the Titanic

they're the most un-American anti-Constitutional Rights organization that has ever outlived its usefulness

signed

I wish President Trump would zero out their budget

I believe they have a data base already for registration. I had sold a pistol many years ago to someone I knew. I only sell with someone who has a ccw and keep a bill of sale, as at least I know they were vetted at least once. Anyway, apparently he sold the gun to someone else who had it stolen from their home and it wound up being used in a robbery. It had to be more than 14 years since I bought it and one day I got a call from an ATF agent asking who I sold the gun to. I verified by other means it was the ATF, as I called them back after getting another number and was patched through to the same agent. Like I said, it had to be every bit of 14 years since I bought it, so I don't think original ownership ever goes away in their system.

They always have access to tho original retail sales as they just do a trace to get that. Absent a FFL facilitated transaction they don’t have anything after that.

quote:

Originally posted by patw:
I believe they have a data base already for registration. I had sold a pistol many years ago to someone I knew. I only sell with someone who has a ccw and keep a bill of sale, as at least I know they were vetted at least once. Anyway, apparently he sold the gun to someone else who had it stolen from their home and it wound up being used in a robbery. It had to be more than 14 years since I bought it and one day I got a call from an ATF agent asking who I sold the gun to. I verified by other means it was the ATF, as I called them back after getting another number and was patched through to the same agent. Like I said, it had to be every bit of 14 years since I bought it, so I don't think original ownership ever goes away in their system.

If you bought the gun new, that doesn't have anything to do with a registration, and quite possibly, has nothing to do with ATF's "system". The dealer keeps the 4473 on file until they close their shop, or 20 years. If they close up shop, their paperwork is consolidated and sent to the ATF for storage (in WV I believe).

The ATF agent assigned to the theft, would just call up the dealer you bought it from, have them look through their bound book (or ATF would do it themselves) find the 4473, and give you a call. The SN for the pistol goes on the 4473.

If the dealer has closed doors, ATF would just look though their massive file system (hardcopy quite a bit, down in WV if I remember) and find the 4473. Yes, a time consuming process.

While I don't doubt ATF would like some registration, the above example is just SOP, not any type of registration.


I've read that article before, there is more than one error in it. A sentence in the first paragraph "ATF agents have used annual inspections to electronically record the contents of Form 4473’s being kept by federal gun dealers." really makes me wonder. I've had annual inspections before, all my paperwork is hardcopy, and no ATF agent has any electronic copy of my files. They can't.

If you buy a gun new, the SN (and other identifying info) already goes on the 4473, period.

WV (martinsville, I think) processes tax stamps. Old 4473's are stored in Dallas in a basement warehouse about the size of the one they sometimes showed on the X-Files. All paper as far as I know. And ATF has never scanned a 4473 where I work, although they contact us once or twice a year to have us look up original owners. Sometimes a buyer will want a copy of a gun they bought years ago for investigations of thefts, etc but we don't release any info unless a police officer requests it on his behalf.

quote:

Originally posted by patw:
I believe they have a data base already for registration. I had sold a pistol many years ago to someone I knew. I only sell with someone who has a ccw and keep a bill of sale, as at least I know they were vetted at least once. Anyway, apparently he sold the gun to someone else who had it stolen from their home and it wound up being used in a robbery. It had to be more than 14 years since I bought it and one day I got a call from an ATF agent asking who I sold the gun to. I verified by other means it was the ATF, as I called them back after getting another number and was patched through to the same agent. Like I said, it had to be every bit of 14 years since I bought it, so I don't think original ownership ever goes away in their system.

if it not the ATF's system,

FFL's, when in business, store the info,


so, that gun you sold to your friend, if it was bought new,

po po pick it up from a crime scene,
call the manufacturer or distributer (info from the gun,,,) and ask them where they shipped gun xyz123,
then they call the distributor,
then the dealer,
then the person who filled out the original 4473,
then that person, who may still own gun, or sold, and ask where and to who it was sold,
and so on down the line,


once they find the last owner, then they will pay a visit, get whatever info they can, and move on,


sometimes it may be a straw purchase, or more likely stolen,


dealers keep the records 20yrs, (by law)

I sent a response, as requested. I added a comment that I thought it ridiculous to add "non-binary" as one of the sexes, too. IMO, anyone that mentally disturbed should not be buying a gun.

flashguy

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:
dealers keep the records 20yrs, (by law)

What happens after twenty years? Can they legally destroy the records? Do they have to send them to ATF after twenty? Or?

Seems like guns (at least ones taken care of reasonably) last a whole lot longer than twenty years. It would seem like the government would want records kept as long as possible.

Curious...

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:

quote:

Originally posted by patw:
I believe they have a data base already for registration. I had sold a pistol many years ago to someone I knew. I only sell with someone who has a ccw and keep a bill of sale, as at least I know they were vetted at least once. Anyway, apparently he sold the gun to someone else who had it stolen from their home and it wound up being used in a robbery. It had to be more than 14 years since I bought it and one day I got a call from an ATF agent asking who I sold the gun to. I verified by other means it was the ATF, as I called them back after getting another number and was patched through to the same agent. Like I said, it had to be every bit of 14 years since I bought it, so I don't think original ownership ever goes away in their system.

if it not the ATF's system,

FFL's, when in business, store the info,


so, that gun you sold to your friend, if it was bought new,

po po pick it up from a crime scene,
call the manufacturer or distributer (info from the gun,,,) and ask them where they shipped gun xyz123,
then they call the distributor,
then the dealer,
then the person who filled out the original 4473,
then that person, who may still own gun, or sold, and ask where and to who it was sold,
and so on down the line,


once they find the last owner, then they will pay a visit, get whatever info they can, and move on,


sometimes it may be a straw purchase, or more likely stolen,


dealers keep the records 20yrs, (by law)

This is all accurate. The trace process is slow and cumbersome.

There's a good video out there showing how it works for out of business dealers. When ATF scans the documents, they do it in TIF format to avoid optical character recognition in PDF format. This is done to AVOID making things easy to find.

I asked my FFL dealer for a copy of a new P226 I purchased 8 years prior. He told me that transactions that old were already destroyed. Is this correct?

Nope. 20 years.then the FFL can either destroy them (and hopefully most do) or give them to the ATF if they want.

Added to say, the average FFL doesn't last 20 years so those records are required to go to the ATF who can and does store them forever.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
WV (martinsville, I think) processes tax stamps. Old 4473's are stored in Dallas in a basement warehouse about the size of the one they sometimes showed on the X-Files. All paper as far as I know. And ATF has never scanned a 4473 where I work, although they contact us once or twice a year to have us look up original owners. Sometimes a buyer will want a copy of a gun they bought years ago for investigations of thefts, etc but we don't release any info unless a police officer requests it on his behalf.

I believe it is actually illegal for the ATF to scan 4473s.

quote:

Originally posted by Scurvy:

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
WV (martinsville, I think) processes tax stamps. Old 4473's are stored in Dallas in a basement warehouse about the size of the one they sometimes showed on the X-Files. All paper as far as I know. And ATF has never scanned a 4473 where I work, although they contact us once or twice a year to have us look up original owners. Sometimes a buyer will want a copy of a gun they bought years ago for investigations of thefts, etc but we don't release any info unless a police officer requests it on his behalf.

I believe it is actually illegal for the ATF to scan 4473s.

They scan the ones turned in by dealers going out of business, but they must be scanned in a format that cannot be searched. Basically like digital microfilm. Here's the story I was referring to earlier:

https://youtu.be/rMQ2b6ZwwCU

I'm on my phone so I can't embed.

GOA fear mongering.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:
dealers keep the records 20yrs, (by law)

What happens after twenty years? Can they legally destroy the records? Do they have to send them to ATF after twenty? Or?

Seems like guns (at least ones taken care of reasonably) last a whole lot longer than twenty years. It would seem like the government would want records kept as long as possible.

Curious...

20 yrs is what is written in law, regs , or whatever you call it,

after 20, the dealer can destroy

agreed,

the forms have changed and evolved into the 6 page front and back monster they are now,

used to be all on the front, then 2 sided,


and it used to be a box where the ID info is put that was labeled 'is known to me',

as in if you had a regular customer, or someone you know well, you checked that box instead of inputting all the drivers license numbers etc,

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
GOA fear mongering.