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President Zelenskyy, the answer is no Login/Join 
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustofer:
Give it a rest. Roll Eyes


Be the example. Roll Eyes




 
Posts: 5051 | Location: Arkansas | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
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Enough
 
Posts: 109418 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Seems like the pro-Ukraine side of this issue really doesn't really know what a win is. The Biden administration is helping Zelenskyy determine what a win in this conflict is. Gee, I wonder what could go wrong with pumping hundreds of billions of dollars into a corrupt dictators country and only he decides when it's over. Thank you so much Biden, thank you so much Congress. Roll Eyes


On Friday’s broadcast of MSNBC’s “Deadline: White House,” White House National Security Council Coordinator for Strategic Communications John Kirby stated that while the United States won’t determine what a win looks like to Ukraine and they have to decide for themselves under what circumstances they’ll negotiate and no one can tell what would drive Vladimir Putin to decide to talk or end the war, they are “focused on helping President Zelensky make that determination.”

Kirby said, “I’d push back…on this idea that we’re afraid of winning or that we certainly don’t want Ukraine to achieve victory. We absolutely believe that they can, and we certainly want them to win, but it’s important that Mr. Zelensky gets to determine what that looks like, what is victory, what is success, and if it ends up at the negotiating table, under what circumstances is he willing to sit down with Mr. Putin, and what would he be willing to negotiate. We’re not going to dictate those terms to him. He’s got to figure that out for himself. And what we want to do is make sure that, in the meantime, we’re giving him all the tools and training he needs to succeed on the battlefield, so that, if and when he sits down at the table, he can do so from a position of strength. Now, what would Mr. Putin do? I don’t think anybody can get accurately inside his brain to know what would drive him to the table or what would drive him to say, okay, I’ve achieved enough success or not. We’re not focused on that. We’re really focused on helping President Zelensky make that determination.”

https://www.breitbart.com/clip...rmine-what-a-win-is/
 
Posts: 7734 | Registered: October 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
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quote:
We’re not focused on that. We’re really focused on helping President Zelensky make that determination.”

Whatever it takes… As long as it takes. Roll Eyes
Of course he will want Crimea with an open offer like that.



"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible."
-- Justice Janice Rogers Brown

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 24718 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Staring back
from the abyss
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quote:
Originally posted by chellim1:
quote:
We’re not focused on that. We’re really focused on helping President Zelensky make that determination.”

Whatever it takes… As long as it takes. Roll Eyes
Of course he will want Crimea with an open offer like that.

Why wouldn't he?


________________________________________________________
"Great danger lies in the notion that we can reason with evil." Doug Patton.
 
Posts: 20727 | Location: Montana | Registered: November 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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“Mongo only pawn in game of life.”
Makes more sense everyday!
 
Posts: 5775 | Location: west 'by god' virginia | Registered: May 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
Picture of chellim1
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quote:
Why wouldn't he?

Of course, Why wouldn't he?
The goal posts keep shifting. Zelenskyy has everything to gain... and we pay for it. Not yet with American lives, but with our treasure.

We could force him to the negotiating table, but we won't ... not under President Depends.



"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible."
-- Justice Janice Rogers Brown

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 24718 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Staring back
from the abyss
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Crimea is Ukrainian territory. Why would he not want that back? There are no shifting goal posts here.

For the life of me, I cannot understand the viewpoint of some of you guys, and I don't mean that as a dig. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Do you think that our fight against communism somehow or another stopped in 1988? Or should we (the free world) should just let them do whatever they want until they come marching through El Paso and Seattle?


________________________________________________________
"Great danger lies in the notion that we can reason with evil." Doug Patton.
 
Posts: 20727 | Location: Montana | Registered: November 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
quote:
Originally posted by Gustofer:
Then he begins with the "Russian port of Crimea" and he lost me. Newsflash: Crimea is Ukrainian territory - agreed upon by...wait for it...Russia. Then we're putting American tanks in Red Square, according to him, and we're all going to die by incineration from nuclear weapons.


The Greeks owned it first. Then the Scythians. Then the Romans. Then the Genevese. Then the Tatars. Then Katherine The Great ordered Sevastapol built in 1784 after Russia annexed Crimea. It was not ordered built by a Ukrainian. Crimea was part of Ukraine from 1954 to 2014, but when the USSR collapsed, Sevastapol was leased to Russia. It's been a Russian port since then. It was a Russian port before that. It is a Russian port. If you'd like to educate me otherwise, I'm willing to listen, but I think that's most of the relevant history I can find. If you want to go back before the Greeks claimed it, that's fine, but I think the statute of limitations is up on anything pre-Christ in that part of the world.




 
Posts: 5051 | Location: Arkansas | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustofer:
For the life of me, I cannot understand the viewpoint of some of you guys, and I don't mean that as a dig. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Do you think that our fight against communism somehow or another stopped in 1988? Or should we (the free world) should just let them do whatever they want until they come marching through El Paso and Seattle?


Those who are against involvement in Ukraine have stated over and over again reasons why - do you even read them? Can you relate even two reasons, as posted in this thread, regarding the other side's point of view?




 
Posts: 5051 | Location: Arkansas | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by marksman41:
Sevastapol was leased to Russia.

These are the important five words in your (re)post.

Crimea is Ukrainian territory. They own it. It is within their borders. Just because Russia was leasing that port does not mean that Russia owned that port.

What part of that do you not understand?


________________________________________________________
"Great danger lies in the notion that we can reason with evil." Doug Patton.
 
Posts: 20727 | Location: Montana | Registered: November 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustofer:
For the life of me, I cannot understand the viewpoint of some of you guys, and I don't mean that as a dig. It just doesn't make any sense to me.
1960 called and wants its doctrine back.

We fought against communism in Vietnam. More than 50,000 Americans lost their lives fighting against it. Ten years, we fought.

What happened? All of Vietnam is now communist. Did the world end? The Domino Effect ain't so effective after all.

Ideas are difficult- possibly even impossible- to defeat. Look at what is happening inside our own country. If you really want to fight communism, your work is cut out for you in defeating it in our schools and universities.


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"I am your retribution." - Donald Trump, speech at CPAC, March 4, 2023
 
Posts: 109418 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Shall Not Be Infringed
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Sevastapol has been the HQ for Russia's Black Sea Fleet for 240 years! Nobody should be surprised that they would intend to keep it, as it's somewhat key to their defenses in that region! It could/should have been predictable that among other things, the Maidan Revolution (a coup orchestrated by the US in February 2014) and the continued expansion of NATO eastward, would have provoked Russia into annexing Crimea.


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If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !!
Trump 2024....Save America!
"May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20
Live Free or Die!
 
Posts: 9481 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: October 29, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gustofer:
quote:
Originally posted by marksman41:
Sevastapol was leased to Russia.

These are the important five words in your (re)post.

Crimea is Ukrainian territory. They own it. It is within their borders. Just because Russia was leasing that port does not mean that Russia owned that port.

What part of that do you not understand?


I understand that a piece of paper allows the Russians access and use of land and facilities that they built and were part of their territorial borders for over two-hundred years.

To preempt the inevitable putting words in my mouth - no, it isn't right that Russia has done what they have. Nobody in this thread, that I'm aware of, with the opposing point of view to yours as regards involvement in Ukraine has stated otherwise. What has been stated is that these actions by Russia were predictable. Acknowledging reality does not equal agreement.

Again, rather than restating the reasons for the umpteenth time, I refer you to read the other posts in this thread for the specifics as to why many are not in agreement with your opinion.




 
Posts: 5051 | Location: Arkansas | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
Picture of P220 Smudge
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustofer:
Or should we (the free world) should just let them do whatever they want until they come marching through El Paso and Seattle?


It's funny to me that you picked the two places I've spent the most time in my life for this example.

They've been marching through El Paso since the 70's. They've been marching in Seattle for a very long time, and as a matter of fact, there's been a fucking statue of Lenin in Fremont since 1995.

We need to fight another war in Europe to keep El Paso and Seattle safe? The money we've sent Ukraine could have gone to a real border wall that we dearly need, and staffing it adequately so as to make a major impact on the drugs flowing into this country. For $100 billion, we could royally fuck up the cartels, but people think those weapons and dollars are better sent to the other side of the planet. It blows my mind.

The dominos fell, man, and guess what? The whole world didn't go communist. We have problems at home that badly need attention, but instead of being unified on dealing with those, we got half the country waving the flag of our land and the other half waving a flag they couldn't have told you was Ukrainian 13 months ago.


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Carthago delenda est
 
Posts: 17760 | Location: Sonoran Desert | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The money we've sent Ukraine could have gone to a real border wall that we dearly need, and staffing it adequately so as to make a major impact on the drugs flowing into this country.

Actually, we could build FOUR walls along the entire southern border for $100 Billion! Wink

What we could do with $100 Billion here in the US? Here's some analysis/suggestions...



The embed starts 7+ minutes into the video


____________________________________________________________

If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !!
Trump 2024....Save America!
"May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20
Live Free or Die!
 
Posts: 9481 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: October 29, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
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Picture of chellim1
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
quote:
Originally posted by Gustofer:
Or should we (the free world) should just let them do whatever they want until they come marching through El Paso and Seattle?


They've been marching through El Paso since the 70's. They've been marching in Seattle for a very long time, and as a matter of fact, there's been a fucking statue of Lenin in Fremont since 1995.

We need to fight another war in Europe to keep El Paso and Seattle safe? The money we've sent Ukraine could have gone to a real border wall that we dearly need, and staffing it adequately so as to make a major impact on the drugs flowing into this country.

Exactly.
The fight against communism is a fight against an ideology. We are surrendering that fight at home without a fight. Ever since Reagan left office in 1988 we have not had an effective voice from our leaders against the perils of communism.

CRT, which is taught in our schools (often called DEI), is a fig leaf for cultural marxism, which is communism. We are raising generations of kids who do not know what they do not know but are willing to tear everything down.


“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.”
― Ronald Reagan

Your fight is at home, and it begins with education.



"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible."
-- Justice Janice Rogers Brown

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 24718 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
Picture of P220 Smudge
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quote:
What we could do with $100 Billion here in the US? Here's some analysis/suggestions...


Well, I keep getting told we haven’t sent $100 billion in cash, we’ve only sent ten. So even if we just keep with that figure, what kind of effect could we have made with $90 billion worth of ”obsolete” war materiel used on Mexican cartels and $10 billion on a wall? I’ll tell you: we’d totally fuck the cartels sideways. I would rather pick a war with Mexico than Russia, and if you want to talk about what makes us look strong vs what makes us look weak, us having unsecured borders and ports isn’t strength. Us having a nation divided and the party of degeneracy and all the things Russians abhor in charge isn’t strength. They respect and respond to strength and we have a demented geriatric blowhard with a government full of trannies and homos in charge and we’re sitting around a thing about looking strong. That ship sailed.

We've been at war with somebody or another my whole 40 years on this planet, and the only thing I can see that it's bought us is a bunch of dead and mangled American fighting men and a whole lot of ill will around the globe. Hell, don't even change the defense budget and procurement and recruiting and training and having the best war machine on the planet, but we really need to get a lot more judicious about how we use it. "But we haven't sent troops and we're getting to destroy Russia for peanuts." I keep seeing that over and over again. We're only a year into this and we don't know what we've bought with that money. I keep seeing stuff about how we fought a war for independence and if we love freedom and democracy, we owe it to Ukraine to support them. Which is it? France didn't give two shits about democracy when they supported us in 1776, they saw an opportunity to fuck with Britain. An estimated 90% of the arms at Saratoga were supplied by the French. If they hadn't thrown aid at us the way we did, we wouldn't be a country. This is true. What did it buy France? Well, their economy was in the shit and they had massive debt before that, crippling debt after, and then they had a bloody civil war less than twenty years later. Sure, they overthrew a monarch and we're all about that, but that country wasn't in shape to support us the way they did and it tore itself apart not long after and largely because while the monarchy could have opted to put the needs of the people before the aims of those in power, they did the latter at too many turns. We had cities burning across the country not three years ago, and yet we think we're in shape to thrown down with another super power? I don't think uncorking that particular bottle is the smart move despite there being all sorts of ideologically sound reasons to do it.


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Carthago delenda est
 
Posts: 17760 | Location: Sonoran Desert | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by P220 Smudge:


We're only a year into this and we don't know what we've bought with that money.






American soldiers lost (not including volunteer fighters): zero.
 
Posts: 843 | Location: Southern NH | Registered: October 11, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Main Thing Is
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Picture of wishfull thinker
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustofer:
Crimea is Ukrainian territory. Why would he not want that back? There are no shifting goal posts here.

For the life of me, I cannot understand the viewpoint of some of you guys, and I don't mean that as a dig. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Do you think that our fight against communism somehow or another stopped in 1988? Or should we (the free world) should just let them do whatever they want until they come marching through El Paso and Seattle?


They've already got Seattle

(oops, apologies Smudge. Rookie mistake, I hadn't read the whole thread and thus missed your points on SEA.


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