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Official Space Nerd |
WHY was a 're-enactor' carrying a charged rifle, AT ALL? Then, why was there powder in the pan? Then, why did he pull the hammer back? Then, why did he pull the trigger? Take away ANY of those four steps and the rifle would not fire. Hence, gross negligence or criminal intent (if he was just handed the weapon). This is MUCH different than a nutjob at a gun show slipping liveammo into a gun at some random seller's booth. Fear God and Dread Nought Admiral of the Fleet Sir Jacky Fisher | |||
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Ignored facts still exist |
that's awful. Violates the 4 rules of gun safety. ---------------------- Let's Go Brandon! | |||
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Striker in waiting |
I never said that I wasn't curious as to the facts. I was responding to your comment, "not enough info," making the point that there certainly IS enough information to identify proximate cause, which is negligence on the part of the guy holding the weapon when it discharged. The identity of the owner is wholly irrelevant to that question. -Rob, Esq. (Admitted in Maryland, U.S. District Court (Dist. MD), 4th Circuit Court of Appeals, US Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces, and the US Supreme Court, purportedly) I predict that there will be many suggestions and statements about the law made here, and some of them will be spectacularly wrong. - jhe888 A=A | |||
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would not care to elaborate |
First of all you're assuming it was a flintlock. Next, if a flintlock, depending on the condition of the firearm, none of the 3 'thens' are 100% necessary for a flintlock to D/C. | |||
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would not care to elaborate |
wrong | |||
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Striker in waiting |
You make a compelling argument. I am clearly incorrect. You didn't happen to be in the Westford Museum in Boston on Sunday, did you? -Rob I predict that there will be many suggestions and statements about the law made here, and some of them will be spectacularly wrong. - jhe888 A=A | |||
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would not care to elaborate |
I'm not the one making definitive pronouncements about what happened without any facts. I will say this, if the proposition is that anyone who happens to be in possession of a firearm, with an accidental D/C, is fully culpable, regardless of the circumstances, then I disagree. | |||
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Striker in waiting |
Neither am I. I'm making a definitive pronouncement that the guy holding the weapon when it discharged was negligent in failing to make it safe. The only way that's not true is if he picked it up and it discharged due to some sort of mechanical failure or freak happenstance immediately (e.g., before he was able to check it) or if it somehow discharged while he was checking it through no fault of his own (see above re: mechanical failure or freak happenstance).
I said negligent. I don't know what fully culpable means. -Rob I predict that there will be many suggestions and statements about the law made here, and some of them will be spectacularly wrong. - jhe888 A=A | |||
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Frangas non Flectes |
If Revolutionary War era, it WAS a flintlock as percussion locks weren't invented until the early 1800's. I don't know how possible it would be to have a mechanical failure that led to enough spark from a flint making it into the flash hole without a charge in the pan. The flash hole is something like a sixteenth of an inch. If there were some sort of mechanical failure, then at the very least, I think he'd have had to have a charged pan to set off the main charge. What I think is likely enough is that he was attempting to demonstrate a "flash in the pan" without setting off a main charge. Such would be a relatively safe and interesting display in the setting of a museum, provided he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was no projectile in the bore. How he could have insured that is using a "ball puller," commonly known and used by muzzle loader hunters and anyone else who knows jack shit about these firearms. It's threaded onto a rod, inserted in the bore, and screwed into any loaded projectile, then pulled. You at least attempt, and yes, you should either know how far it inserts when empty vs. loaded, or be able to tell when it's tapping the back of the chamber, because it feels different than it does when it contacts a lead projectile. That he didn't do so is negligent. You have your lens you view life through and I appreciate your perspective. All the legal stuff aside, I think the conversation as firearm enthusiasts is interesting enough on it's own to try to determine exactly how one ND's a flintlock. ______________________________________________ Carthago delenda est | |||
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would not care to elaborate |
True, a caplock would not be period correct, doesn't mean it wasn't in use at the time. Setting the main charge off with sparks alone off the frizzen is a known phenomenon. Witness marks are used on the ram rod to determine if the bore is charged, or not, or if dry balled. It's not a good idea to ignite the primed pan indoors. There is a lot of flame and white smoke, and also grit that could get in someone's eye. The flame doesn't look like much during the day, but in low light you can see there is quite a bit. | |||
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Lawyers, Guns and Money |
Sounds negligent to me too. Still, the full story would be interesting. "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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Member |
Whole bunch of wordsmithing sse to get around the fact that this clown is an absolute train wreck safety wise. Was this guy your buddy or something? You seem intent on defending what is clearly an indefensible negligent discharge. Dumb ass goofball with a gun. In a museum. Stupid all around. Lucky nobody got killed. | |||
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Res ipsa loquitur |
I have used the ball puller you referenced and they work well and are easy to use. As you mentioned, you can tell the difference between a ball and the back of your rifle’s chamber. One trick I always use is to mark my ramrod with a line showing loaded and unloaded chambers and label them as such. I’m concerned about not only leaving a loaded rifle by mistake but a double charge but I digress. There is another method using Co2 to safely discharge a rifle. I’ve never used it and I don’t know how effective and/or or safe it would be indoors. https://logcabinshop.com/oc30/...uct&product_id=24787 But I have to agree, it is hard to understand how a spark would occur in the pan and then move into the chamber without it being a deliberate act. What I’m going to guess is that the rifle was used in a prior outdoor live-fire demonstration and it was never unloaded or discharged before being stored again. It also could have had a misfire and they never pulled the ball. To me, it is clear the person shooting the gun in the museum did not check it before he decided to demonstrate a “flash in the pan” as you mentioned. __________________________ | |||
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would not care to elaborate |
I'm not acquainted with whoever it is. | |||
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Member |
Under the circumstances described, having a loaded musket, whether or not it was primed and regardless of whether or not it was intentionally cocked and fired, was stupid and negligent. | |||
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His diet consists of black coffee, and sarcasm. |
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Member |
Sounds like the handler wasn’t real familiar, everyone seems to want to pull triggers. No reason to shoot indoors. It’s east to tell if a percussion has a cap, a flight lock is the bit different. We have a Model 1863 Springfield, percussion. If some type of reenactment involving shooting, they need more checks. | |||
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Frangas non Flectes |
And never would I argue that it is, only that I can imagine certain scenarios in which an ignorant or inexperienced person might think it was an OK idea. ______________________________________________ Carthago delenda est | |||
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would not care to elaborate |
Not sure I can say the same. It throws a lot of flame, and as can be seen, smoke, is quite loud on its own, throws debris, probably against local and state law, and if authentic black powder, which it probably was, is categorized as an explosive by the Feds. Hard to believe someone would intentionally do this. (Plus, the damn thing could go off.) | |||
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Frangas non Flectes |
Yes, but you and I know that, hence my caveat. ______________________________________________ Carthago delenda est | |||
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