Alithos Anesti.
Happy Blessed Pascha to all the Orthodox Brethren!!

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Originally posted by mark123:
I started to read the article but got hung up on this:

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Jesus Christ was crucified by the Romans around 30 A.D., died on the cross on a Friday and was buried in a tomb outside of Jerusalem. Three days later, on Sunday, Christ rose from the dead

Three days later is Monday. I’m not going to hold History Channel to any sort of theological accuracy but that commonly held doctrine always confused me.

Here's the rest of the story: The Jewish day starts with evening then morning. See Genesis 1, verses 5, 8, 13, 19, 23, and 31, "And there was evening and there was morning, one day." So the Jewish calendar day starts from sundown to sundown. Evening or sunset is the start of the Jewish calendar day.

From John 19, 31-33, "Now then, since it was the day of preparation, to prevent the bodies from remaining on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews requested of Pilate that their legs be broken, and the bodies be taken away. So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man, and of the other who was crucified with Him; but after they came to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs."

Day of preparation for what? Preparing for the Sabbath. The Jewish leaders did not want anyone to be hanging crucified during the Sabbath so they requested the legs to be broken so that they could not push themselves up on their feet to breath. When you're crucified, you need to push up on your legs to take a breath. Breaking their legs would keep them from breathing thus hastening their deaths. But as the passage notes, when they came to Jesus, the soldiers who were experienced in seeing crucifixions and dead people, knew that Jesus was already dead. One stuck a spear in Jesus' side to make sure.

So we know that Jesus died just before the Sabbath. And Sabbath day starts at Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.

So Jesus having died before the Sabbath which starts at Friday sunset, died during Friday afternoon before the Sabbath. That's the first day. Then Sabbath went from Friday sunset until Saturday sunset; that's the second day. After Saturday sunset is the start of the third day and on Sunday morning, the women came to the tomb and found it empty.

And that's how Luke says in 24:46, "and He said to them, "So it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem." And Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15: 3-4, "For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures."

The first day Jesus was dead was some time Friday afternoon before the Sabbath starts on Friday sunset. The second day, Jesus was in the tomb from Friday sunset until Saturday sunset. The tomb was found empty on the third day which started on Saturday sunset and ended Sunday sunset.

The confusion about the number of days helps to support the veracity of the biblical accounts. It's not as if they couldn't count days. If the stories were made up, the people who wrote the accounts or the people after them would have caught the contradiction and revised the stories to make it all add up.

But no one did throughout the centuries. They wrote from their perspective and their accounts make sense once we reconcile to the context of their time period and culture.

The problem with that is this part:

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(for that Sabbath was a high day)

The weekly Sabbath isn’t a high day. This was concerning the preparation day for the Passover (which is a high day and considered Sabbath) and places the whole thing probably on Wednesday (some say Thursday but I find that questionable). The way the Holy Days work is that they are prophetic. His crucifix was the Passover, the resurrection was the Feast of Firstfruits.

Let’s not even mention His actual birth was on the Feast of Trumpets.

The prophetic fulfillment concerning the Messiah is what solidified Christianity in my mind. My hope is that I can plant that seed in others and at least make them look into and even question their personal beliefs and the doctrine of their church denomination.

I do enjoy these conversations and I thank you.

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Originally posted by Patriot:

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Originally posted by mark123:
I started to read the article but got hung up on this:

quote:

Jesus Christ was crucified by the Romans around 30 A.D., died on the cross on a Friday and was buried in a tomb outside of Jerusalem. Three days later, on Sunday, Christ rose from the dead

Three days later is Monday. I’m not going to hold History Channel to any sort of theological accuracy but that commonly held doctrine always confused me.

There is no day zero. The day Christ was crucified was day one. Saturday, day two. Sunday, the third day.

If Saturday was day one…what was Friday, day zero? No such thing for the Hebrews.


Either way, HE IS RISEN!

HE IS RISEN INDEED! (Traditional response)

flashguy

Truly, he is risen!

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Originally posted by mark123:
The problem with that is this part:

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(for that Sabbath was a high day)

The weekly Sabbath isn’t a high day. This was concerning the preparation day for the Passover (which is a high day and considered Sabbath) and places the whole thing probably on Wednesday (some say Thursday but I find that questionable). The way the Holy Days work is that they are prophetic. His crucifix was the Passover, the resurrection was the Feast of Firstfruits.

Let’s not even mention His actual birth was on the Feast of Trumpets.

The prophetic fulfillment concerning the Messiah is what solidified Christianity in my mind. My hope is that I can plant that seed in others and at least make them look into and even question their personal beliefs and the doctrine of their church denomination.

I do enjoy these conversations and I thank you.

I agree with you that the regular Sabbath is not a "high day." But the gospel accounts disagree with you that the preparation day was for Passover because Passover was already done. Jesus and his disciples had finished eating the Passover meal before Jesus was arrested in the garden. If you look at Luke 22:1-20, you will read the events leading up to the arrest and crucifixion of Jesus. Verse 7 says the first day of Unleavened Bread came, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed and Jesus sent Peter and John to prepare the Passover meal for them. In verses 14 through 20, we read what is repeated as the communion in Christian churches. A good number of Christians are unaware that Jesus' Last Supper was a Passover meal that was commanded in the Old Testament. Do you accept that the day of preparation could not have been preparation for the Passover since it was already past when Jesus died?

So whatever made that Sabbath a high day could not have been the Passover because it was already past and it could not have been just a regular Sabbath. But what I do know that could have made it a high Sabbath is that the Passover is also the start of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread which last for 7 days beginning with Passover. In Exodus 12:14-20, it starts on the 14th day of the first month until the 21st day of the month. It would have been a Sabbath in the midst of the 7 day Feast of Unleavened Bread. In Exodus 12:1-8 details the Passover. It's on the first month same as the Feast of Unleavened Bread (verse 2). They choose a lamb on the 10th day, keep it until the 14th day at which time they slaughter it at twilight.

You're correct that most Christians believe the Feasts ordained in the Old Testament are connected to events of the Messiah. But when the New Testament writers claimed he rose on the third day and they wrote that he died on a Friday, it's not an oversight on their part because, if they were simply making the story up, they could have revised the story or somebody else soon afterwards, to make the story "add up" for us.

I disagree that the last supper was the Passover meal. The Galilean Jews observed seudah maphsehket (last supper) that the Judean Jews did not. Some denominations call it the “Night to be Much Observed”.

Look, believe or not. There is a) shit tons to debate if you don't believe, b) nothing to debate if you do believe, and c) those in A and B generally but not always don't mix well.

However: I can tell you, having been an attorney doing both defense and prosecution for 26 years that: 1) if three people saw an event there are at least four or five different perspectives about what happened, and 2) age doesn't help any investigation.

But I believe. You get to make your own decisions. For me, not knowing exactly what happened doesn't bother me. I don't care exactly how the fire was lit to see and know that a fire got started, and that's me.

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Originally posted by Loswsmith:
Look, believe or not. There is a) shit tons to debate if you don't believe, b) nothing to debate if you do believe, and c) those in A and B generally but not always don't mix well.

However: I can tell you, having been an attorney doing both defense and prosecution for 26 years that: 1) if three people saw an event there are at least four or five different perspectives about what happened, and 2) age doesn't help any investigation.

But I believe. You get to make your own decisions. For me, not knowing exactly what happened doesn't bother me. I don't care exactly how the fire was lit to see and know that a fire got started, and that's me.

Not understanding scripture is a recipe for sin up to and including worshiping the wrong god.

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Originally posted by mark123:
I disagree that the last supper was the Passover meal. The Galilean Jews observed seudah maphsehket (last supper) that the Judean Jews did not. Some denominations call it the “Night to be Much Observed”.

The Last Supper was, of course, the Passover meal.

It has all the elements of the Passover meal. Jesus celebrated it as the Passover meal. The disciples recognized it as the Passover meal. The historical church has always seen it as the Passover meal. And to fulfill the prophesies, it has to be the Passover meal.

If it wasn’t The Passover meal, then Jesus wasn’t the stainless sacrifice and Easter never happened.

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Христос Воскресе!

Воистину Восцкрес!

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Originally posted by mark123:
Not understanding scripture is a recipe for sin up to and including worshiping the wrong god.

Man, am I ever in trouble

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Originally posted by mark123:
I disagree that the last supper was the Passover meal. The Galilean Jews observed seudah maphsehket (last supper) that the Judean Jews did not. Some denominations call it the “Night to be Much Observed”.

But you didn't read Luke 22:1-20, did you?

V. 1 "Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching."

v. 7 "Now the first day of Unleavened Bread came, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed."

v. 8 "And so Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and prepare the Passover for us, so that we may eat it.”"

v.9 -13 "They said to Him, “Where do You want us to prepare it?” And He said to them, “When you have entered the city, a man carrying a pitcher of water will meet you; follow him into the house that he enters. And you shall say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher says to you, “Where is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?” ’ And he will show you a large, furnished upstairs room; prepare it there.” And they left and found everything just as He had told them; and they prepared the Passover."

V 14-20 "When the hour came, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. And He said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I say to you, I shall not eat it again until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, “Take this and share it among yourselves; for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.” And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body, which is being given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup, which is poured out for you, is the new covenant in My blood. "

The gospels say 1) Christ rose from the dead on the first of the week, 2) He was buried before the Sabbath. You had a problem with the number of days. I explained it to you from the reckoning of the Jewish calendar day. Your choice then is to decide whether they were mistaken or were they lying? Or, could it be that the explanation I gave (which I didn't make up myself) that accounts for the Jewish reckoning of a day adequately reconciles your uncertainty about the accounting of days?

Now, you say the last supper wasn't a Passover meal. You can follow along in Chapter 22 where it's about Jesus and the disciples preparing for the Passover and in verse 14, Luke records Jesus as saying, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you." So you have to ask yourself, was Luke the physician wrong in his recounting and he mistook another meal as the Passover meal they had for the Last Supper or was he lying?

I honestly don't mind however you reconcile the issues. I'm just looking for consistency.

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Originally posted by ensigmatic:

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Originally posted by mark123:
Not understanding scripture is a recipe for sin up to and including worshiping the wrong god.

Man, am I ever in trouble

Same! See the forest for the trees. Jesus doesn't care how crisply mastered is the understanding of the days and night within the Word. We know well what He came here to teach, and do, and He did. This theological technocratic debate is at best how we show each other how much more Christian that we are than one another, and at worst how the devil himself divides the flock.

If it's fun to try to piece it together, then by all means have at it. But let's not suggest that if we don't get this minutia 100% accurate, then damnation is upon us. I've got the "recipe for sin" written into my DNA, and it's got nothing to do with my mastery of Biblical intricacies.

I’ve learned a lot in following this thread. Very interesting, smart people knowing(reading) what scripture interpretations mean. I truly like the information I’m getting.

What are your opinions on a simpleton just trying to live my life by the 10 Commandments?

I don’t know scripture, chapter, verse etc. just the Commandments.

I apologize for the drift, I just want to get smart. Thanks!

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Originally posted by recoatlift:
What are your opinions on a simpleton just trying to live my life by the 10 Commandments?

Are you following all ten? Do you trust in the saving work of Jesus?

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Originally posted by ensigmatic:

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Originally posted by mark123:
Not understanding scripture is a recipe for sin up to and including worshiping the wrong god.

Man, am I ever in trouble

Some truly are though. Can’t laugh, it makes me sad.

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Originally posted by Rey HRH:

I honestly don't mind however you reconcile the issues. I'm just looking for consistency.

The Passover is one day of the 8 (or 9 if you take into account the last supper Galilean tradition) that came to be known as both Passover or sometimes Matzah. Jesus was referring to the entire, encompassing festival. The last supper was a meal during the Passover but it wasn’t THE Passover meal or else he didn’t fulfill the Passover becoming it’s sacrifice.

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Originally posted by r0gue:
If it's fun to try to piece it together, then by all means have at it. But let's not suggest that if we don't get this minutia 100% accurate, then damnation is upon us. ...

No, don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying if you don’t understand this you’re hellbound. But it’s possible to get it really wrong and not know it. It’s not about accuracy, it’s about creeping doctrine and filtering scripture through tradition. I lay blame at the pulpit.

I hope no one is offended by my posts, if you are please accept my apologies. I’m very interested in such discussions.

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Are you following all ten? Do you trust in the saving work of Jesus?

Mark, I’m very good with 9, # 2 is where I fall by the wayside. Sometimes I slip up and cuss when mad.

As far as Christ, I am Irish & Sicilian, I was born to serve Him & everything He puts my way. The Trinity & Holy Family are everything to me, there is nothing else.

Thank you for asking. I appreciate your thread!