quote:

Originally posted by OKCGene:
Side drift: What about what happened in the Payne Stewart death? Flying along at altitude, something happened, it crashed.

Loss of cabin pressurization.

quote:

Originally posted by OKCGene:
Side drift: What about what happened in the Payne Stewart death? Flying along at altitude, something happened, it crashed. A military plane caught up with it, the pilot observed frosted over windows and no movement in the plane. Apparently some sort of pressurization failure and death from freezing to death or no oxygen. Two highly trained pilots but apparently it happened so quickly that nothing was done successfully. The plane continued to fly in a normally operational status until it finally ran out of fuel.

So, what happened? I've never learned of a good explanation, maybe no one was able to fully and satisfactorily state what went wrong so quickly and incapacitated everyone.

This is a mystery to me.

I've never flown the Lear 35 which is what that airplane was, but from what I've heard theorized the oxygen bottle that supplies the emergency supply was turned off. This was a common practice as some combinations of masks/hoses tend to leak especially at colder temps and this was the workaround. It was a normal part of the preflight to check the shutoff but in this case perhaps it was missed.

They also had to lose pressurization at some point, either they had a malfunction or didn't properly configure the aircraft (bleed air, outflow valve, etc) and may have taken off and climbed out unpressurized. Normal procedure would of course be to don the oxygen masks when the cabin altitude warning sounded but not knowing there was no oxygen in them they succumbed to hypoxia and passed out, possibly without ever knowing what happened. Pretty sad all around.

quote:

Originally posted by Top Gun Supply:
There is an actual reversal of the oxygen diffusion gradient across the alveolar membranes and oxygen passes back into the lungs from the venous blood.

Okay, thanks. That thought actually occurred to me and makes sense, but I don’t know enough about oxygen transfer in the lungs that I didn’t want to assume the answer my own question.

(And when I ask questions like this, it’s not because I believe that all those hypoxia warnings and experiences are bogus; other than pilots, I and the other people who live and play where I do have more experience with operating in low oxygen conditions than the vast majority of Americans. I ask because I’m trying to understand something that seems counterintuitive to me at my level of understanding. )

This shows you what hypoxia does to you. These guys were lucky that the controller realized it and descended them.

https://youtu.be/_IqWal_EmBg

quote:

Originally posted by OKCGene:
Side drift: What about what happened in the Payne Stewart death? Flying along at altitude, something happened, it crashed. A military plane caught up with it, the pilot observed frosted over windows and no movement in the plane. Apparently some sort of pressurization failure and death from freezing to death or no oxygen. Two highly trained pilots but apparently it happened so quickly that nothing was done successfully. The plane continued to fly in a normally operational status until it finally ran out of fuel.

So, what happened? I've never learned of a good explanation, maybe no one was able to fully and satisfactorily state what went wrong so quickly and incapacitated everyone.

This is a mystery to me.

Maintenance issues in pressurization and emergency air.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95612&page=1

quote:

Originally posted by Ronin1069:

quote:

Originally posted by RAMIUS:
I love the aviation and shipping threads because they eventually always devolve into everyone arguing about experience and terminology.

Where’s that Michael Jackson eating popcorn meme?

LOL! For what's it's worth, I've been face-to-face, shot with, and broke bread with Furlough on more than one occasion. I cannot attest for his direct pilot knowledge, but I will say that he is the kind of man I hope is flying the plane I'm in.

Almost forgot....

Get with the times gents....



It is stated somewhere a passenger with a cowboy hat "tried to fill the window hole to achieve pressurization"

Whether true or not im curious id this would even work with what was on board? Maybe a rubber raft might seal it but probably uncontrollable once you pull the ripcord.

I remember flying over the French Alps from Nice to Paris in a twin engine Airbus. Hit an air pocket and dropped a couple thousand feet, things on trays, people hovering led me to always keep my seat belt on snug. Been on enough rough rides that I always keep the belt on..

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
If the armor around the tail engine of a DC10 couldn't prevent UA232 in Sioux City, then there's no way I'm willingly sitting in line with the compressor of a jet engine. Maybe it's statistically irrational, but there it is. It's one of my hangups, and this story just reinforces it.

There's no armor in the engine or tail of the DC10. The #2 engine sits so far back in the nacelle that there's little to hit with an uncontained failure, except the auxiliary power unit, and of course hydraulics. It was loss of hydraulics that created their problem. Today, the DC-10 and MD-11 have hydraulic inline fuses to prevent loss, and in particular, the #3 hydraulic system incorporates what's sometimes called the "sioux city" valve which shuts off hydraulics to the tail area in the event system fluid drops below 4.75 gallons.

The #2 engine on UAL232 had a weakness on the N1 fan, which is what failed and departed the engine. The compressor on most engines is not inside "armor," but does typically have a surrounding structure which helps retain material separating.

I had an engine grenade on the way out of Afghanistan one night, apparently losing quite a bit of metal and parts; we had no cockpit indication at all. No vibration, no temperature or power changes, nothing. We had a return flight the next day and I was in the cockpit loading the FMC when the FE announced we wouldn't be going. #2 engine grenaded. I went down to look, and viewing from the rear, numerous huge chunks of blades and parts were missing. Obviously this didn't happen while sitting, and could only have occurred the night before. Our departure was to be daylight, and what wasn't seen in the postflight at night showed up in the day. Whatever broke off and went through that engine took a lot of other stuff with it, but the engine kept operating. That was a Pratt JT9D.

I have had other engines, from large radials to turboprops and turbojets, which did not contain the failure; pistons through cowlings on R-2600's and R3350's, and failures in TPE-331's, etc. Even a compressor stalling PT6 on a Piaggio, when an ice door failed and blew back to block the inlet, inside the cowl. Most failures are not so catastrophic, and most engine issues involve accessory functions such as fuel flow or oil. By and large, most engines, especially turbine engines, are quite reliable.

The crew of the 737 in this case appear to have done a good job, acted professionally, and followed procedure.

As for sitting in line with the compressor, you'll note from the location of the failed window that the people on that row were not in line with the compressor.

Personally, when riding somewhere, I like to sit at the back. It's a bit noisier, but it's easier to get overhead space, it's closer to the lav and let's face it, there are more survivors in the rear.

There's a lot of talk about Payne Stewart's Lear pressurization issue. The oxygen bottle on that aircraft was known to leak down and the line boy who normally filled it said it hadn't been filled, and the crew was in the habit of shutting off the oxygen at the bottle (which can only be reached externally on preflight). The Learjet uses a common type rating between the 20 series and 30 series; the emergency pressurization and window defog are different between the two, except for the early series Lr 35. A cockpit controllable valve needed to be moved for emergency pressurization. Additionally, some Lear pilots would leave the bleed air switches off for takeoff for additional power, and turn them on in the air. Failure to turn them on would mean no pressurization. In any event, the aircraft was intercepted and observed to have unresponsive occupants, and frosted windows. It was escorted until it ran out of fuel and crashed. There wasn't enough useful wreckage to recover enough meaningful evidence of the cause. I was flying a Lear quite a bit at the time, and there was a lot of discussion about it in the field and at Flight Safety and Simuflight.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Okay, thanks. That thought actually occurred to me and makes sense, but I don’t know enough about oxygen transfer in the lungs that I didn’t want to assume the answer my own question.

(And when I ask questions like this, it’s not because I believe that all those hypoxia warnings and experiences are bogus; other than pilots, I and the other people who live and play where I do have more experience with operating in low oxygen conditions than the vast majority of Americans. I ask because I’m trying to understand something that seems counterintuitive to me at my level of understanding. )

One of the big dangers of hypoxia is that it can be very insidious. The symptoms are not universal, and affect each person differently. A classic symptom of hypoxia is euphoria; feeling good. It's the sense of wellbeing that causes many to miss or deny the fact that they're hypoxic, and judgement goes out the window.

In altitude chambers, where pressure is decreased incrementally to demonstrate the effects, it's not uncommon to see people repeating actions over and over, even though the action is very simple. Games such as the child's sphere with the little plastic triangles and circles and plus signs that are pushed through matching holes; people struggle to figure out how to do it. Women attempt to put on lipstick and draw all over themselves. Writing the ABC's becomes an impossible task, as does counting backwards from 20. When oxygen is restored, people are often in complete denial that they were having any difficulty at all, until shown video. Color goes monochromatic. Checklist items get skipped. Eventually unconsciousness and death occur. Throughout it all, many have no idea they're impaired.

.

I cant help but wonder if this has been any type of sabotage in reply to the syria bombings??

quote:

Originally posted by furlough:
Dude, I have noticed that every time we have some aviation-related thread you jump in and turn it into some sort of dick-measuring contest.

He's a pilot.

It's a 'propellering' thing.

quote:

Originally posted by RAMIUS:
I love the aviation and shipping threads because they eventually always devolve into everyone arguing about experience and terminology.

I could be wrong, but I don't think I ever see such dick measuring contests, when it comes to medical or legal threads. Strange.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:

quote:

Originally posted by RAMIUS:
I love the aviation and shipping threads because they eventually always devolve into everyone arguing about experience and terminology.

I could be wrong, but I don't think I ever see such dick measuring contests, when it comes to medical or legal threads. Strange.

Maritime accidents too. Add those to the list

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

A classic symptom of hypoxia is euphoria.

That phrase brings back memories of a written test, maybe fifty years ago.

It was a multiple choice test, and some of the wrong choices are usually fairly similar to the correct answer.

This test had a classic wrong choice for "a possible symptom of hypoxia" -- "a feeling of Utopia."

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

.... "a feeling of Utopia."

... If you discover Utopia, won't you be in a state of Euphoria?



.

quote:

Originally posted by Tailhook 84:

quote:

Originally posted by OKCGene:
Side drift: What about what happened in the Payne Stewart death? Flying along at altitude, something happened, it crashed.

Loss of cabin pressurization.

Not loss of compression?

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:

quote:

Originally posted by RAMIUS:
I love the aviation and shipping threads because they eventually always devolve into everyone arguing about experience and terminology.

I could be wrong, but I don't think I ever see such dick measuring contests, when it comes to medical or legal threads. Strange.

Cuz the doctors can’t talk about it and the lawyers are too busy fluffing each other with an air of superiority? Bahahhahaha

quote:

Originally posted by TigerDore:

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

.... "a feeling of Utopia."

... If you discover Utopia, won't you be in a state of Euphoria?

No. Actually, I was not in any state at all. I was in Puerto Rico at the time.

Here’s the info on the pilot:

* Tammie Jo Shults, 56
* Began with Southwest in 1993
* One of the first female Navy fighter pilots, serving as a pilot and instructor
* Graduated from MidAmerica Nazarene in Olathe, Kansas
* Once said in an interview that sitting in the captain's chair gave her "the opportunity to witness for Christ on almost every flight."

Given her Christian faith, I imagine CNN’s and MSNBC’s interviews with this hero pilot who saved almost 150 lives will last about 12 seconds.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:

quote:

Originally posted by RAMIUS:
I love the aviation and shipping threads because they eventually always devolve into everyone arguing about experience and terminology.

I could be wrong, but I don't think I ever see such dick measuring contests, when it comes to medical or legal threads. Strange.

Years ago, I was in court representing a title company in a suit brought by a real estate broker who was representing himself. His paperwork was irregular, completely inadequate, so much so that I moved to have his complaint dismissed, called a “demurrer.” One of his Points, he cited imminent authority, “Thou shalt not steal.”

The judge was an older fellow, an albino, very nearly blind. He read papers by holding them close to his nose.

He came out, took the bench, the clerk called the case, we made our appearances and the judge started by saying that when he was in college, he had been a wrestler.

I remember sitting there at counsel’s table, thinking, “Dear God, where is this going?”

The judge continued. “One of the things I learned was that it was alot harder to wrestle someone who didn’t know how to wrestle than it was to wrestle someone who did.” He had a great deal of sympathy with my situation, wrestling a guy who didn’t know how to wrestle. He then advised the fellow to get help, and dismissed the complaint with leave to amend.

Lawyers mostly know how to wrestle, by instinct, training and experience. There is a mental discipline, looking for facts, figuring out relevant rules or principles, usually a respect for another wrestler. It’s not personal, strictly business. Often, you realize who has the upper hand in the situation and resolve things without loss of dignitude.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JALLEN,