I don’t believe Juan Browne from the video on page 1 is correct about where the helicopter was flying from. Flashlightboy is correct as far the last place it took off from before the crash goes. The ads-b exchange website show an aircraft with PAT25 taking off there then flying down the Potomac to the crash point with JIA5342. The ads-b shows an aircraft without a call sign coming from north of Bethesda and landing at the point PAT25 took off from 10-20 minutes before PAT25’s flight started.

Additionally, I don’t believe the helicopters providing these VIP transport flights are based where Juan Browne says they are in his video either.

Audio pre and post crash, no music or commentary.

quote:

Originally posted by Phantom229:

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
I will be curious to know how the helicopter could have been cleared into the approach corridor to DCA. Sounds like the mother of all ATC screw-ups.
Hard to be optimistic after watching the video, but I pray they can find some survivors.

Based on the audio, PAT had the American in sight and was maintaining visual separation. All seems to check out on the ATC side. If I tell a pilot about a plane, they see the plane and tell me they’ll maintain visual separation from that plane, that’s on the pilot for hitting that plane.

Edit: just heard PATs response. Traffic was pointed out to pass behind. PAT reported the traffic in sight and said they would maintain visual separation. Later when PAT was getting closer, the controller verified the PAT pilot had the CRJ in sight, PAT responded affirmative and said they would maintain visual separation.

Thanks. I hadn't heard the audio yet. If PAT took on the duty to maintain visual separation, then it's on them, but it still strikes me as odd that traffic is allowed to cross the final approach segment of the RNAV at the same altitude as the incoming jets.

quote:

Originally posted by Flashlightboy:
If you know where to look, you can find where the helicopter departed in VA prior to the crash.

The address of that residence is [clipped]. That is a property owned by the Saudi government and there is well-known name associated with that address. Not in the public domain but a name in ambassador and consulate circles.

Unknown if the helicopter had done a drop-of or a pickup in VA although the Army calling it a training flight is typical so that the taxpayers aren't getting fleeced for taxi services. Same when a fighter or bomber flies over a game or at the start of the Rose Parade.

And THIS is the new conspiracy theory! (Goodness grief.) That helicopter did not take off from a residential backyard. There are other examples online where PAD-25's transponder is turned on and off during flight.

For reference, here is a PAT-25 flight path from DAA to DAA on Jan. 18, including practice approaches to the helipads at JB Anacostia, the MGM Casino Hotel, and then again to Anacostia. I'd bet they were on a similar training mission, maybe flying the same or similar route in reverse.

https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/PAT25

If you look closely at the one-hour training flight from Jan. 18, they passed over that address (within a block or two along the Capital Beltway at 1,400 feet. No practice approach to a a backyard that is a max of 2,500 square when you'd probably need double that to land. We would have also heard many reports from residents about big helos landing in a residential zone.

A military aircraft disappeared over a property listed as owned by the Royal Embassy of Saudi Arabia and 10-20 minutes later another military aircraft, call sign PAT25, appears over the same property. Those are facts. The property is 1.73 acres and just down the street from the CIA at Langley. I have no explanation for those facts.

Searching maps, that is quite a large house (mansion)/property with a large back yard. FWIW

quote:

ATC: PAT25 do you have CRJ in sight?
PAT25: Aircraft's in sight, request visual separation.

Blackhawk was supposed to maintain visual separation and pass behind the landing CRJ, but for some reason flew into it instead.

So... the helicopter pilot's "visual" was on the wrong plane?

Why was the PAT25's transponder turned off during flight? Would that have made a difference?

Why is the US .gov paying for VIP taxi service using military aircraft, particularly in a crowded area like this?
Seems like something DOGE might want to take a look at...

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:

quote:

Originally posted by Phantom229:

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
I will be curious to know how the helicopter could have been cleared into the approach corridor to DCA. Sounds like the mother of all ATC screw-ups.
Hard to be optimistic after watching the video, but I pray they can find some survivors.

Based on the audio, PAT had the American in sight and was maintaining visual separation. All seems to check out on the ATC side. If I tell a pilot about a plane, they see the plane and tell me they’ll maintain visual separation from that plane, that’s on the pilot for hitting that plane.

Edit: just heard PATs response. Traffic was pointed out to pass behind. PAT reported the traffic in sight and said they would maintain visual separation. Later when PAT was getting closer, the controller verified the PAT pilot had the CRJ in sight, PAT responded affirmative and said they would maintain visual separation.

Thanks. I hadn't heard the audio yet. If PAT took on the duty to maintain visual separation, then it's on them, but it still strikes me as odd that traffic is allowed to cross the final approach segment of the RNAV at the same altitude as the incoming jets.

It’s not odd at all and happens daily. What I don’t get is where people are saying that PAT had the climbing CRJ in sight when he was crossing through final.

quote:

Originally posted by Phantom229:

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:

quote:

Originally posted by Phantom229:

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
I will be curious to know how the helicopter could have been cleared into the approach corridor to DCA. Sounds like the mother of all ATC screw-ups.
Hard to be optimistic after watching the video, but I pray they can find some survivors.

Based on the audio, PAT had the American in sight and was maintaining visual separation. All seems to check out on the ATC side. If I tell a pilot about a plane, they see the plane and tell me they’ll maintain visual separation from that plane, that’s on the pilot for hitting that plane.

Edit: just heard PATs response. Traffic was pointed out to pass behind. PAT reported the traffic in sight and said they would maintain visual separation. Later when PAT was getting closer, the controller verified the PAT pilot had the CRJ in sight, PAT responded affirmative and said they would maintain visual separation.

Thanks. I hadn't heard the audio yet. If PAT took on the duty to maintain visual separation, then it's on them, but it still strikes me as odd that traffic is allowed to cross the final approach segment of the RNAV at the same altitude as the incoming jets.

It’s not odd at all and happens daily. What I don’t get is where people are saying that PAT had the climbing CRJ in sight when he was crossing through final.

It may happen all the time....but it seems like an accident waiting to happen. If traffic is going to cross the final approach segment of an approach, it should be at an altitude well above the glidepath. Seems like basic common sense.

And my guess is that PAT wasn't looking a climbing CRJ but at the #2 jet on the approach behind 5342 (but of course, just a guess).

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:
Seems like something DOGE might want to take a look at...

This is going to cost us taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars.

Have the twitteratti figured out yet how this is all Trump's fault?

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:

quote:

Originally posted by Phantom229:

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:

quote:

Originally posted by Phantom229:

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
I will be curious to know how the helicopter could have been cleared into the approach corridor to DCA. Sounds like the mother of all ATC screw-ups.
Hard to be optimistic after watching the video, but I pray they can find some survivors.

Based on the audio, PAT had the American in sight and was maintaining visual separation. All seems to check out on the ATC side. If I tell a pilot about a plane, they see the plane and tell me they’ll maintain visual separation from that plane, that’s on the pilot for hitting that plane.

Edit: just heard PATs response. Traffic was pointed out to pass behind. PAT reported the traffic in sight and said they would maintain visual separation. Later when PAT was getting closer, the controller verified the PAT pilot had the CRJ in sight, PAT responded affirmative and said they would maintain visual separation.

Thanks. I hadn't heard the audio yet. If PAT took on the duty to maintain visual separation, then it's on them, but it still strikes me as odd that traffic is allowed to cross the final approach segment of the RNAV at the same altitude as the incoming jets.

It’s not odd at all and happens daily. What I don’t get is where people are saying that PAT had the climbing CRJ in sight when he was crossing through final.

It may happen all the time....but it seems like an accident waiting to happen. If traffic is going to cross the final approach segment of an approach, it should be at an altitude well above the glidepath. Seems like basic common sense.

And my guess is that PAT wasn't looking a climbing CRJ but at the #2 jet on the approach behind 5342 (but of course, just a guess).

Any time there is more than 1 aircraft in the air there is risk. VFR pilots do this all day every day at uncontrolled airports. Common sense would be not hitting the guy you said you saw.

I fly into DCA frequently as a pilot. This isn't a conspiracy, an accident like this has been cooking for a long time. There's no where else in the US (including LaGuardia) which has such a complicated tapestry of rotary and fixed wing in close proximity at low altitude. RW has its own deconfliction frequency too, so commercial pilots are often unaware of their presence until we see them. This alone is highly unusual, but a result of volume of traffic.

My best guess is the Blackhawk was looking at the wrong aircraft when he said he'd maintain visual separation, and the CRJ didn't see him or know of his presence until a half second before impact.

How to fix this? RW without TCAS on their own frequency darting between configured commercial aircraft on short final to a class B airport should be prohibited. But the VIPs will not like that.

There are reports that the Black Hawk was "flying dark,"—meaning the helicopter's pilots did not activate the crucial ADS-B signal, which allows air traffic control and surrounding aircraft to track its location in the extremely tight and heavily regulated airspace.

https://www.zerohedge.com/poli...losion-caught-camera

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

The airplane was on a perfect and routine line of approach to the airport. The helicopter was going straight at the airplane for an extended period of time. It is a CLEAR NIGHT, the lights on the plane were blazing, why didn’t the helicopter go up or down, or turn. Why didn’t the control tower tell the helicopter what to do instead of asking if they saw the plane. This is a bad situation that looks like it should have been prevented. NOT GOOD!!!

https://truthsocial.com/@realD...s/113915617049801010

When I first heard about the crash, my mind flashed back to the Air Florida Flight 90 crash into the Potomac back in January ‘82. A tragedy.

quote:

Originally posted by Phantom229:
It’s not odd at all and happens daily. What I don’t get is where people are saying that PAT had the climbing CRJ in sight when he was crossing through final.

CRJ was descending.

Look at the flight paths posted. They were heading towards each other on parallel paths, the CJR is on the right heading north and the Blackhawk is on the left heading south.

Using both the paths already posted and the DCA tower audio Ronin1069 posted above, the CRJ was given and accepted the option to land on 33. A bit later, with a few miles separation between the CRJ and the Blackhawk, DCA Tower tells the Blackhawk that the CRJ is at some bridge, at 1200’, and making its approach to 33. The audio doesn’t have the Blackhawk’s response, but the next the DCA Tower says is “Visual separation approved”. A bit after that, DCA tower asks the Blackhawk if it sees the CRJ, again approves visual separation, and tells the Blackhawk to pass behind the CRJ. Again we can’t hear the Blackhawk’s side of the communication. The CRJ turns left or towards the west to line up with 33 which also takes it across the Blackhawk’s southerly path. The Blackhawk then turns right or west from its southerly path right into the CRJ. To avoid the CRJ, the helicopter should have turned towards the east and it would have wound up where the CRJ was moments before.

Because the videos of the crash are on a horizontal plane, we don’t see the turns being made. The flight paths are an overhead view, so the turns are obvious.

As far as whether or not the Blackjack pilots saw the CRJ, multiple reports claim they said they did. The DCA Tower audio seems to support this. The ads-b site shows three planes before the crash. One plane lands, when the CRJ and Blackhawk are a few miles out, another much farther out setting up to land on runway 1. I have no idea how confusing having three then two planes heading towards you at night could be.

The Blackhawk was using MLAT whatever that is and the DCA Tower was tracking the Blackhawk.

quote:

Originally posted by Phantom229:
Based on the audio, PAT had the American in sight and was maintaining visual separation. All seems to check out on the ATC side. If I tell a pilot about a plane, they see the plane and tell me they’ll maintain visual separation from that plane, that’s on the pilot for hitting that plane.

Edit: just heard PATs response. Traffic was pointed out to pass behind. PAT reported the traffic in sight and said they would maintain visual separation. Later when PAT was getting closer, the controller verified the PAT pilot had the CRJ in sight, PAT responded affirmative and said they would maintain visual separation.

1) It is really hard to see aircraft lights at or below the horizon. Especially with a city below and clear skies. There is no busier workload environment for a pilot than where this accident happened, which can divide attention from watching the other aircraft.

2) As humans we are subject to all kinds of optical illusions. We lock onto the wrong aircraft and believe it is the correct one. We "see" something as an aircraft that isn't even an airplane. Etc etc.

I've accepted visual separation countless times, and requested it countless other times. There have been times I or the other guy fell victim to a visual illusion or momentarily lost visual contact.

ATC asking for confirmation of something should be a big red flag wake up call to a pilot that he may have made an error.

We'll have to wait for real information on this accident, but it won't surprise me if the helo either fell victim to an illusion or briefly lost visual contact.

TCAS should have alerted the CRJ crew to the helo and commanded either CLIMB or DESCEND. But it only works if both aircraft have transponders on. It also presupposes the crew responds immediately.

The CVR from the CRJ will reveal what TCAS alerts were given, if any. There will be a number of important lessons learned from this accident.

DCA was my least favorite major airport to operate at. No room for any errors. La Guardia was a piece of cake in comparison.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
TCAS should have alerted the CRJ crew to the helo and commanded either CLIMB or DESCEND. But it only works if both aircraft have transponders on. It also presupposes the crew responds immediately.

I had seen that TCAS does not alert to ascend or descend below 1000 feet? It does alert, but does not say what to do?

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
...with a few miles separation between the CRJ and the Blackhawk, DCA Tower tells the Blackhawk that the CRJ is at some bridge, at 1200’, and making its approach to 33.

It is the Woodrow Wilson Bridge. It is the Capital Beltway southern crossing point for the Potomac River and about five miles downriver (south) of Reagan National. (The northern crossing point is the American Legion Bridge.)