Completely uneducated question. Can the helo pilot not just stop and wait a minute like a kid crossing the street? Unlike a plane they can just hover. Or does this then conflict with other traffic if they are not all moving simultaneously?

Trump Says DC Black Hawk "Was Flying Too High... By A Lot"

Update (0825ET): President Trump has chimed in, confirming the altitude of the Black Hawk was too high...

Additionally, it appears the chopper had a few close-calls that night...

TRANSTERROR? Was the Blackhawk pilot actively trying to hit a passenger jet? Flight tracking seems to show that the pilot had three near misses before hitting the American Airlines jet.

While there are countless facts still left to be uncovered and scrutinized, there's an early indication that the worst US air disaster since 9/11 may have resulted from a flight-path deviation by the Army helicopter that collided with a passenger jet landing at Washington's Reagan National Airport. Remarkably, it appears an identical disaster may have been narrowly avoided just one day earlier, when an airline pilot chose to abort landing after deeming another helicopter was dangerously close. Control-tower staffing is also emerging as a major concern -- including a decision to allow one controller to leave work early.

Based on a determination of the UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter's last location before colliding with American Airlines 5342 from Wichita, the Army chopper was flying above its authorized flight path, according to anonymous sources who spoke to the New York Times. The American CRJ300 stopped transmitting tracking data at 375 feet -- suggesting impact occurred far above the 200-foot ceiling imposed on helicopters in that area.
The wreckage of the Army UH-60 Black Hawk that collided with American Airlines Flight 5342 on Wednesday night, killing 67 (EPA)

The Black Hawk was reportedly under the command of a female pilot with more than 500 hours of flight time. The male instructor pilot had more than 1,000 hours, while the crew chief is also said to have logged hundreds of hours. Given the shorter duration of helicopter flights, those hours are substantial, according to Jonathan Koziol, a retired Army chopper pilot who's assigned to the Unified Command Post that's been organized to coordinate the post-disaster efforts at the airport.

The Army has not released the names of the crew members, but the names of the two males aboard the Black Hawk have emerged via other channels: Staff Sgt. Ryan O'Hara and Chief Warrant Officer 2 Andrew Eaves. All were assigned to Bravo Company, 12th Combat Aviation Battalion, headquartered at nearby Fort Belvoir. While there are many social media posts purporting to identify the female pilot as a male-to-female trans National Guard member who on Tuesday publicized his transition, ZeroHedge cannot find authoritative confirmation of those claims as this article is being written. On Monday, President Trump issued an executive order barring transgender people from openly serving in the military.

https://www.zerohedge.com/poli...g-1-day-over-chopper

has the chopper pilot been identified?

No, she has not. That the pilot was female has been, though. The trans person the internet is claiming was the pilot is alive and well.

It would be really strange for Trump to mention something as specific as dwarfism and mental handicaps in a speech this soon after a tragedy without knowing ahead of time the person responsible for the accident fits both of these descriptions. I am going to go out on a limb and guess the air traffic controller was a DEI hire with zero experience or knowledge of how to direct flight paths. The media will be eating crow in a few days when this fact is revealed.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
I've seen the 500 hour number floating around as well, and that the pilot was a woman. But I have not seen anything official about any of the crew so would not take any of it as fact yet.

It depends... but military pilots get (or used to get) a really good education. Tons of very applicable ground school, and many hours of simulator. 500 or 1000 hours of military flight time is probably a pilot who is quite proficient with his machine and mission, who has many additional quality hours in a simulator.

In general, military doesn't mix with airline ops very much. Which isn't an insult, just that a typical military pilot operating out of military fields has less familiarity with very busy commercial airports. This crew being in DC might have been very familiar with DCA, but it is a potential factor that they may not have been familiar.

500 hours of civilian time smashing bugs in a single engine piston airplane is novice territory.

My observation as an instructor at the airline was that military pilots had a superior academic education to civilian pilots, even those civilians who went to fancy flight academies.

My observation of female pilots was that there were a few who should have been washed out in primary training but nobody had the guts to do it. But the average of the women was better than the average of the men except in perhaps mechanical systems aptitude(e.g. hydraulic).

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
Things happen so fast that by the time the alert is sounding in the tower it is too late. It seems the computers are calibrated to work well for Cessna 172 speeds but not jets...

In this case, the CRJ was doing 125kts and the Blackhawk was doing 100kts. Are those not 172 speeds?

Actually not too much faster.

I'd be curious to hear from an experienced controller how much time or distance those warning systems provide. I've heard towers de-conflicting Cessna aircraft calling out very short distances, like a mile, with the traffic alert sounding in the background.

The one near miss of my airline career was departing Long Beach, California. A light piston aircraft was at 1000 feet in our initial climb path. By the time ATC called it we were making aggressive maneuvers. Our airspeed was under 200 kts.

quote:

Originally posted by Carpentermaass84:
It would be really strange for Trump to mention something as specific as dwarfism and mental handicaps in a speech this soon after a tragedy without knowing ahead of time the person responsible for the accident fits both of these descriptions. I am going to go out on a limb and guess the air traffic controller was a DEI hire with zero experience or knowledge of how to direct flight paths.

Trump alluded to Buttigieg and his "bullshit", that Obama fucked up the ATC world, he fixed it for awhile in his own presidency, then Biden/Buttigieg took it back to the Obama years. Trump and his people know what DEI has done to the FAA.

I came across an X post that took me to a webpage that is very informative and very eye opening. Posted literally one year ago, the very detailed article, with links, goes over the troubles at the FAA and their hiring practices of air traffic controllers, this shit starting in the Obama administration. DEI has corroded fire departments, military ranks, federal employment, including ATCs.

If you have the time, this is very worthwhile to read, including the court documents linked. The lead paragraph-

quote:

A scandal at the FAA has been moving on a slow-burn through the courts for a decade, culminating in the class-action lawsuit currently known as Brigida v. Buttigieg, brought by a class who spent years and thousands of dollars in coursework to become air traffic controllers, only to be dismissed by a pass-fail biographical questionnaire with a >90% fail rate, implemented without warning after many of them had already taken, and passed, a skill assessment. The questionnaire awarded points for factors like "lowest grade in high school is science," something explicitly admitted by the FAA in a motion to deny class certification.

https://www.tracingwoodgrains....dal-a-quick-overview

https://storage.courtlistener....s.dcd.182656.1.0.pdf

I read that the FAA has closed the helicopter routes near Reagan National. I am not a pilot but that seems like something that should have occurred years ago. A 200' difference between the helicopter route and Reagan National air traffic seems insufficient especially since the routes intersect. I know we have many pilots on Sig Forum, am I missing something?

Just remember, after being in office just over a week, the accident was clearly the fault of Trump and his policies.

https://x.com/RealJessica05/st.../1885015214166258138

quote:

Originally posted by x0225095:
This is going to go down as a horrific, but avoidable, accident for many reasons but at the end of the day it was ATC’s airspace to command and they failed.

Just out of curiosity, are you a pilot or an air traffic controller? How much aviation experience do you have upon which to base your conclusion?

As a pilot and flight instructor one of the first things I was taught and one of the first thing I impress upon any students is that the pilot in command is *the* ultimate authority and has the ultimate responsibility for the safe outcome of a flight. If ATC instructions are problematic, it isn’t necessary to tell the controller to “piss up a rope.” a simple, diplomatic, “unable” will do.

For many (probably most) pilots, there is a desire to be part of the team, doing what one can to make the system work better and everyone get where they need to be with is little drama as possible. Visual separation is a common way to do this. Think of it as, “I got this, don’t worry about us, concentrate on the rest of your sector.” It helps everyone when it works. I can follow or pass as closely as I safely can, saving me some time and the controller can stay on top of all his other charges.

Could the controller have prevented this crash by denying the helo pilot’s request for visual separation and instead vectored him? Yes, but that is not how things are typically done anywhere I’ve been. Could the helo pilot have avoided the crash by being on route, on altitude, stable, having seen and avoided the correct jet? Yes, but he didn’t. Being at 300’ on a route where the maximum altitude for him is 200’ is off by a factor of 50%. Yeah, it is still well within allowable altimeter error, but it doesn’t tell the story of someone who has flying the aircraft completely wired and has spare cycles for taking on more responsibility. 20:20 hindsight is perfect, but the helo crew could have prevented the accident by being less helpful and saying, “I think we have him, but can you separate us?” This isn’t the John Wayne, balls of steel, I can do anything approach, and it may be hard for some egos to handle, but it could have prevented the accident.

In my mind, arabiancowboy hit on the lurking time bomb that ultimately led to this accident: Having Rotary Wing and fixed wing mixing it up it tight, congested airspace on different frequencies. Controllers (and some pilots) talk about “having the flick”. This refers to having a picture in your mind telling you where everyone who might be relevant to the safety of your flight is. The controllers have a radar display (usually), radio communications, flight plans or progress strips (usually), their Mark 1 Mod 0 eyeballs, and probably other aids I don’t know about. The pilots have their eyes and their ears. If you can’t hear half the traffic that may be a factor for you, that makes it pretty hard to build the flick in your mind.

In this case, it sounds to me like the pilot took on more than he could handle and a lot of people died as a result. Other than fixing the frequency issue or putting in place tougher structural deconfliction (Let the VIPs travel by ground bound limos), I’m not sure what I’d recommend to prevent a reoccurrence.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
"72 hour rule applied"

Hmmm, what is the 72 hour rule? Do I have turn in my unitard for not knowing? In my defense, I’m fighting a miserable cold…

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
In this case, the CRJ was doing 125kts and the Blackhawk was doing 100kts. Are those not 172 speeds?

You’re likely to see something like 115-120 kts in cruise in a 172. Approach speeds would probably be 70-80 kts depending unless keeping speed up for traffic.

Another difference is that most propeller driven aircraft have a lot less mass and can change speed and direction more quickly than most transport category aircraft. Not only is your typical jet moving faster, but it has more inertia and changes flight path more slowly. As a result, pilots of transport category aircraft have to be thinking faster to stay ahead of the aircraft.

quote:

Originally posted by smlsig:
Question for those who might know…

How low are the ATC’s able to “see”? If the helo was suppose to operate below 200’ would that be in the ground clutter of the radar?

Depends. I’ve worked 2 towers that were tall basically on a hill and one that isn’t as tall in a valley. In the DCA case, it would have been had to notice a 10° turn from PAT until it was too late.

quote:

Originally posted by oddball:
https://www.tracingwoodgrains....dal-a-quick-overview

https://storage.courtlistener....s.dcd.182656.1.0.pdf

Very interesting...

The copilot of the Blackhawk has not yet been identified. At this point, that strikes me as really strange.

Those of you who have had so much experience, are there protocols that might explain this?

quote:

Originally posted by justjoe:
The copilot of the Blackhawk has not yet been identified. At this point, that strikes me as really strange.

The feds/military have yet to identify any of the Blackhawk crew. Georgia’s Governor Kemp identified one and the other was identified by his wife.

The news says officials are waiting for the families to be notified before making any official announcements. This happened less than 48 hours ago and they don’t just send the next of kin at text.

quote:

Originally posted by justjoe:
The copilot of the Blackhawk has not yet been identified. At this point, that strikes me as really strange.

Those of you who have had so much experience, are there protocols that might explain this?

Have any of the crew been officially identified? I could easily see a situation where one or more crew members were (either correctly or incorrectly, see the trans person’s proof of life video) identified by someone with no official standing, but whoever it was didn’t identify all crew members either because they didn’t know or weren’t speculating on all of them.

Now if there were an official news release identifying some, but not all of the crew, I guess that could be explained by being able to contact next of kin for some, but not all. I’d expect they’d wait to officially identify anybody until they could officially identify everybody to preclude this very question.

^^^^^^ thank you that makes sense

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:

Very interesting...

Yes, it is very interesting.

Trump mentioned this class action lawsuit yesterday, and the issue has been getting some traction on X.



And looking at this Blaze Media link, I now find out there was a documentary released months ago about the ATC and DEI problem. The trailer is in Elon's post, and the actual documentary is below it.

Like you said, interesting and infuriating .

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/...entary-from-november