quote:

Originally posted by ulsterman:
I think NJ was just forced to recognize all of LEOSA.

With that, it's sketchy. Without that, I wouldn't carry anywhere close to that place.

The Third Circuit affirmed the District Court decision on that issue earlier this year. So, yeah, NJ now has to pretend to be part of the United States. Grudgingly. Very grudgingly.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:

I really don't care what their rules are. I care about the law, and it's not illegal to ship by means other than USPS. It's not a transfer because I already own the gun. I understand that breaking their rules means they won't pay an insurance claim. But this is not an expensive gun and I have plenty more. I've shipped my guns out for work plenty of times without describing the contents as other than "machined metal parts."

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/q...-or-contract-carrier

In addition, federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm or ammunition, prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm and requires obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a)(5), 922(e) and (f); 27 CFR 478.30 and 478.31]

I’d advise you not to violate state and federal law.

ATF left out this part:

(e)It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

I will just ship to my local FFL and then I don't have to notify.

Rick, not trying to be difficult here, but what you posted does not absolve you from notification.

It states that it is illegal to ship to anyone BUT those listed, and then that you have to notify.

Let me put it very clearly; failure to notify, no matter the recipient, is a federal crime. Proceed with caution.

quote:

to persons other than licensed

How does this part make it a crime to fail to notify, when I'm shipping to an FFL? I have discussed this with several FFLs, to whom I've shipped without notifying the carriers, and they all said it's fine.

The way it reads, I can't ship to myself or anyone else without notification. But I don't have to notify when shipping to an FFL.

The ATF states it on their website, with relevant case law. I don’t care what your local FFL states, that’s irrelevant.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
The ATF states it on their website, with relevant case law. I don’t care what your local FFL states, that’s irrelevant.

Right. And they left out section E of the statute referenced on their site. But it doesn't mean section E doesn't apply. We all know about airline employees and even LE who were ignorant of the law. Doesn't mean the law doesn't apply. Section E says notification is only required if shipping to other than licensed ...... I don't want to be a test case. But I don't think shipping a gun I've owned for five years to an FFL (who also happens to be a cop) is going to be a called a crime by anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
The ATF states it on their website, with relevant case law. I don’t care what your local FFL states, that’s irrelevant.

Right. And they left out section E of the statute referenced on their site. But it doesn't mean section E doesn't apply. We all know about airline employees and even LE who were ignorant of the law. Doesn't mean the law doesn't apply. Section E says notification is only required if shipping to other than licensed ...... I don't want to be a test case. But I don't think shipping a gun I've owned for five years to an FFL (who also happens to be a cop) is going to be a called a crime by anyone.

Do it! This is what you want to hear, correct? While your chances of running afoul of the authorities is low, it is important to note anti-2A sentiment in our nation is at an unprecedented level. Should you become one of the unfortunate few who finds themselves entangled in the hysteria, please be sure to let us know how the "I don't think shipping a gun I've owned for five years to an FFL (who also happens to be a cop) is going to be a called a crime by anyone" defense is received by the court.

On the contrary, I'd like someone to explain how that language, which seems pretty clear to me, means something other than what it says. Just because ATF puts part of a law on their website and leaves a pretty important other part of the same law off, doesn't mean the omitted part doesn't exist.

I had to read it 6 times to really parse it but I think you are right. Written notification is required only of you are shipping to someone “other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors”.

I don’t have time ATM to read it 6 more times, but that’s what I think the law says.

You are right, it is crystal clear. I'd proceed if I were you.

Rick, I like you, and most of the stuff you post. This one has me scratching my head.

You come and ask advice and get answers you don’t want. These guys on the forum are your FRIENDS, and are trying to HELP you. None of us want to see you get sideways with the legal system. They’re not giving you bad advice. Many of us are overly cautious when it comes to carrying a gun, especially if it has to do with a communist state that doesn’t recognize the laws. If your friends are saying don’t do it, what do you think is going to happen when someone who is not your friend is judging or applying the law to you?

As far as shipping a gun, is it really worth the possibility of getting in trouble? Again, these people are your FRIENDS and we are all trying to HELP you. Again, if your friends on the forum are saying it’s a bad idea, what do you think the scum at the ATF will say?

When I travel, even when I went to Florida (which is almost as gun friendly as Arizona), I didn’t bring a gun. The inconvenience wasn’t worth the reward. In your case you need to weigh risk vs reward.

If I’m going somewhere that I KNOW I WILL NEED A GUN, I’m not taking a fucking pistol. I’m taking ten friends and we are all going to be armed with long guns and a minimum of a couple hundred rounds each. I carry a pistol for the one in a million odds that I might need it.

A question you have to ask yourself, do you really NEED to have a gun when you’re out of town?

Risk vs. Reward
Taking a gun with you vs. the PITA to get it home
Taking a gun into NJ vs. not doing so
Not notifying a carrier because the law is gray vs. possibly having felony charges and LOSING YOUR RIGHT TO POSESS FIREARMS

Seriously, weigh out the risk vs. reward in your situations.

It seems like the biggest reward you’ll get out of any of this is to come back to this thread and say “see, I told you so”. Is it really worth that? Seems like a pretty lame reward.

I hope it all works out in your favor, my friend.

Thanks. Again, not taking it to NJ with me. It was clear that was too risky after the first few replies. I grew up in NJ and never thought anything of it when driving to/from the range with my dad's guns in the trunk. Never had a FOID. Though in hindsight, that was probably pretty risky.

As for shipping the gun home, I'm still not sure what I'll do. I may leave it with the friend I'm staying with in Pittsburgh and just bring it back on my next trip. I have three P365s, so I can live with two for a while.

I absolutely will always take a gun with me on every business trip to gun-friendly states. I work in the ghetto and have never had an issue at any airport.

I, too, grew up in NJ. We had bb gun wars in the neighborhood. Good fun, and nobody had an eye shot out. Lots of marksmanship training with 22's in the Boy Scouts. Starting as a Cub Scout, my friends and I always carried pocket knives everywhere, including school, every day. That was back in the 60's and 70's.

These days I won't even carry a pocket knife when we visit.

Another point to remember is that (At least the last time I travelled to NJ), LEOSA does not absolve you from magazine limits nor ammunition restrictions. At the time I travelled there, hollow point ammunition was banned for 'citizen' carry. I had to always remember to have 2 magazines available, a 10 rounder and my usual 12 with a 15 back-up. I'd lock the 12 and 15 away and would not carry them at all there.

The case everyone remembers Revell

His luggage was sent to NJ.

When he went to retrieve it he was arrested.

Want to be the next test case?

"We recognize that he had been placed in a difficult situation through no fault of his own," wrote Judge Kent A. Jordan of the U.S. 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia. However, the law "clearly requires the traveler to part ways with his weapon and ammunition during travel; it does not address this type of interrupted journey or what the traveler is to do in this situation."

The answer is yes, you can fly into ANY NJ airport with a handgun and no NJ FOID. You will be arrested if you try to fly out of ANY NJ airport without a NJ FOID.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
The answer is yes, you can fly into ANY NJ airport with a handgun and no NJ FOID. You will be arrested if you try to fly out of ANY NJ airport without a NJ FOID.

Now, that's interesting. I can kind of understand getting jammed up when declaring a gun while checking in for a departing flight in NJ. I was really wondering if anyone knows about the incoming stuff. Only hint of a gun I've seen before is that AA tags luggage with declared guns to go to the baggage service office (BSO) for pickup. But then they do that for lots of stuff that has nothing to do with guns.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:

These days I won't even carry a pocket knife when we visit.

Well, that right there is just silly.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
The answer is yes, you can fly into ANY NJ airport with a handgun and no NJ FOID. You will be arrested if you try to fly out of ANY NJ airport without a NJ FOID.

Now, that's interesting. I can kind of understand getting jammed up when declaring a gun while checking in for a departing flight in NJ. I was really wondering if anyone knows about the incoming stuff. Only hint of a gun I've seen before is that AA tags luggage with declared guns to go to the baggage service office (BSO) for pickup. But then they do that for lots of stuff that has nothing to do with guns.

Whenever I've had to pick up my checked luggage with a firearm in it at the baggage office, the baggage agent always knew why my bag went there and that it was because there was a firearm inside. I wouldn't trust any of the airline employees at Newark not to call the authorities.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
Rick, not trying to be difficult here, but what you posted does not absolve you from notification.

It states that it is illegal to ship to anyone BUT those listed, and then that you have to notify.

Let me put it very clearly; failure to notify, no matter the recipient, is a federal crime. Proceed with caution.

I’m paraphrasing what it says:
Unlawful give firearms to carrier for shipment to people other than the ones listed without written notification.

As written, that section does not require someone to give written notification or any other notification to the carrier that the package contains firearms if it is being shipped to the licensed people listed.

If it was the intent that written notification was required no matter what, then the carve out for “other than” shouldn’t be there.

I’m not trying to be dense or argumentative. I am dense sometimes and really need things spelled out before I get it. It’s a personal flaw of mine.