quote:

Originally posted by SpinZone:
Yes.
If we are going to hold LEOs to a higher standard of conduct then we must hold crimes against them to a higher standard.

curious how LEO's are held to a higher standard,

not trolling, legit question

quote:

Murder => Death penalty

I'm mostly on board with this.

If it is blatantly obvious the murderer is guilty then we shouldn't be screwing around with spending years on death row. Get it over with.

I do however know that there are sometimes innocent people who get convicted for whatever reason. If it is not blatantly obvious that the party is guilty, then they should have every right to fight their conviction.

quote:

then they should have every right to fight their conviction.

Absolutely. That's justice. But, once all the appeals are finally exhausted, then...bring out the guillotine.

quote:

Originally posted by dsiets:
Some of the responses here, they shouldn't complain if LE doesn't run in to save their family. If they have no extra protection for running toward the danger while we all run away, then who is going to do it?

I do not expect LE to run in and save my family. Who in the world would expect that after watching LE “respond” to Uvalde or Parkland or Columbine? Let’s not forget Uvalde police literally arrested parents for trying to save their kids while the cops did zero. I’m not trying to disparage all officers, but please get off your high horse.

Anyone who commits 1st degree murder should be killed regardless of their employer.

quote:

Originally posted by arabiancowboy:

quote:

Originally posted by dsiets:
Some of the responses here, they shouldn't complain if LE doesn't run in to save their family. If they have no extra protection for running toward the danger while we all run away, then who is going to do it?

I do not expect LE to run in and save my family. Who in the world would expect that after watching LE “respond” to Uvalde or Parkland or Columbine? Let’s not forget Uvalde police literally arrested parents for trying to save their kids while the cops did zero. I’m not trying to disparage all officers, but please get off your high horse.

I share your disgust in those situations.
I'm sorry you feel that way.

A first degree murderer normally faces the harshest punishment that a particular jurisdiction can apply.

Some places it's death, others life w/no parole.
Often related to it being a Red or Blue state.

How much more can you add to death?

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
A first degree murderer normally faces the harshest punishment that a particular jurisdiction can apply.

Some places it's death, others life w/no parole.
Often related to it being a Red or Blue state.

How much more can you add to death?

I would expect most LE killed in the line of duty are 2nd degree? but who knows what they will charge.

Yes. The harshest possible punishment.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:

quote:

Well, for the sake of argument, we shouldn’t hold them to a higher standard then. No more “the cops should have went in there” or “they should have known better” or “why didn’t they do something earlier”, etc….

Well for the sake of argument, we're talking about a matter of law. Making a punishment, under law, different for one group than another.

Can you tell us which laws punish the police, at a greater extent (higher standard) than the general public for "should have went in there", "should have known better" or "why they didn't do something earlier"?

What other laws hold police to a higher standard, where an LEO is punished to a greater extent in relation to any other non-LEO who commits the same crime?

Oh, I don’t know… citizen kicks in your front door and goes through your house probably burglary or B&E wherever you may be. A cop just kicks in your door and starts going through stuff I would suspect a 4th admendment violation along w/ civil rights violations…

You see Suzy Sweatsocks who you know, and you know she has been hiding from the cops because she has warrants. You do nothing. No laws broken. You are a cop working and you see the same. You know she has warrants. You do nothing and let her go. A misdemeanor violation of law in my state…

Another one you use deception or fraud to steal from someone. Theft by deception. Do it in my state as a cop or an officer of the courts not only theft by deception add on Oppression by Color of Office.

I assume you have heard of Derrick Chauven as another example…

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 357fuzz,

The question is too ambiguous for me.

We have different grades of crime for killing people, first of all. I don't know all the degrees but there's premeditated killing, I suppose voluntary manslaughter since there's involuntary manslaughter.

I say the punishment should be correlated with the different grades as I mention above plus the disparity of force and circumstances. One man kills another of approximate stature in a bar fight is different from one man killing a defenseless victim caught unawares.

cop killers are often meted out with street justice just around the time of capture and before getting to the jail.

Michigan does this in a way. Here are Michigan's degrees of murder:

1st Degree Murder: mandatory life without the possibility of parole
2nd Degree Murder: any term of years but not mandatory life
Voluntary Manslaughter: 15 year maximum
Involuntary Manslaughter: 15 year maximum

Michigan has as part of 1st degree murder a charge called Felony Murder. The penalty if convicted of felony murder is mandatory life. The definition of Felony murder includes the unpremeditated killing of a police officer (performing his or her duties).

However, the killing of a non-police officer without premeditation or deliberation would be 2nd Degree Murder, which typically carries a penalty of roughly 20-35 years and not mandatory life.

quote:

Originally posted by arabiancowboy:

quote:

Originally posted by dsiets:
Some of the responses here, they shouldn't complain if LE doesn't run in to save their family. If they have no extra protection for running toward the danger while we all run away, then who is going to do it?

I do not expect LE to run in and save my family. Who in the world would expect that after watching LE “respond” to Uvalde or Parkland or Columbine? Let’s not forget Uvalde police literally arrested parents for trying to save their kids while the cops did zero. I’m not trying to disparage all officers, but please get off your high horse.

Anyone who commits 1st degree murder should be killed regardless of their employer.

If I, for some insane and unfathomable reason, decided to prohibit my guys from entering a school to save children being held hostage by a crazed gunman, I would have boot prints on the back of my shirt from all my guys as they knocked me down and ran into the school in an effort to rescue those kids. What happened in Uvalde, Parkland and Columbine as disgusting as they are, are not the norm in L/E, they are the exception. I agree that every cop that was on those scenes should hang their head in shame, be ostracized forever and permanently banned from ever working in L/E anywhere but they do not represent the law enforcement that I know and have been a part of for over thirty years. They are in fact cowards that are hated by the rest of L/ E for what they did or didn’t do on the days they were called upon, especially at Ulvalde and Parkland.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog7972:


If I, for some insane and unfathomable reason, decided to prohibit my guys from entering a school to save children being held hostage by a crazed gunman, I would have boot prints on the back of my shirt from all my guys as they knocked me down and ran into the school in an effort to rescue those kids. What happened in Uvalde, Parkland and Columbine as disgusting as they are, are not the norm in L/E, they are the exception. I agree that every cop that was on those scenes should hang their head in shame, be ostracized forever and permanently banned from ever working in L/E anywhere but they do not represent the law enforcement that I know and have been a part of for over thirty years. They are in fact cowards that are hated by the rest of L/ E for what they did or didn’t do on the days they were called upon, especially at Ulvalde and Parkland.

This. Absolutely this.

If anybody wants to see a good example of how it's supposed to be handled, watch the video of the Nashville school shooting response from this past year. The guy with the rifle who took out the shooter wasn't even assigned to that district, but was driving through the area when the call went out and responded to assist, along with everybody else.

12123, “You're in agreement with him. Not sure why you say no. Confused”


This is what I was trying to say

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:
No. Murder is murder. One's occupation shouldn't elevate them above anybody else.

Hate crime laws shouldn't exist for the same reason. We're either all equal under the law, or we aren't.

I say no.

This is what happens when some crimes are much more serious as far as penalties than others depending on who the target is.

https://www.breitbart.com/poli...teran-elderly-women/

"Seven pro-life activists were sentenced to years in federal prison on Tuesday and Wednesday for protesting at the Washington Surgi-Clinic in Washington, DC, in 2020, an abortion clinic infamous for late-term abortions."

I am saying no on this but with this caveat. All homicides should be treated the same. The problem are these prosecutors and judges un willing to follow the laws prosecuting and giving sentences to these criminals. The latitude allowed to these prosecutors and judges is the problem.

Sometimes we find Justice is delivered quickly by other members of law enforcement after someone shoots and kills a fellow officer.

No court or judges to give the assailant any leeway in sentencing.

Link

Accused of killing deputy, suspect shot 68 times

A fugitive gunman accused of killing a Florida sheriff’s deputy was shot 68 times by SWAT team officers who found him hiding in the woods, according to autopsy results.

Police fired 110 shots at Angilo Freeland, 27, the target of a massive manhunt in central Florida following the shooting death of Polk County Sheriff’s Deputy Matt Williams Thursday.

“That’s all the bullets we had, or we would have shot him more,” Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd told the Orlando Sentinel newspaper.

Judd said Williams was “executed” after Freeland was pulled over in a routine traffic stop on Thursday. Another deputy was wounded and a police dog killed.

Williams, 39, was shot eight times—one bullet fired at close range behind the deputy’s right ear and another in his right temple, according to autopsy results released on Saturday by the sheriff’s office.

Sheriff’s officials said SWAT team members found Freeland on Friday hiding under a fallen oak tree in a wooded area near where the deputies were shot, and began firing when they saw a gun in his hand.

Not that there can't be mitigating circumstances of a crime but to make it aggravating because of who they are is the same flawed philosophy of the so called "hate crime.

Another retired LEO here. I'd be happier by far if the appropriate penalties for ANY murders were applied consistently.

In the United States, the median time served by murderers-- not people convicted of negligent homicide, or manslaughter, or vehicular homicide... MURDER, y'know, killing with malice aforethought-- is 17 YEARS.

Let that hang in air for a second. In the United States, the average time served by MURDERERS before "initial release" is 17 years.

"Median" means that half do LESS TIME THAN THAT. For Murder.

"Life in prison" doesn't mean life. Fifty years doesn't mean fifty years. In many states, death doesn't mean death (how many of you live in states where even if judges impose the death penalty and it's upheld through appeals, the state has a "moratorium" on actual executions?)

We don't need enhanced penalties. We need to warm up Ol' Sparky and start actually imposing the penalties on the books.