Just more of the cop blocking idiocy. People who think the don't talk bullshit actually works deserve to end up on youtube as the police smash out their window. Idiots.

... that was some fun video ...

quote:

Originally posted by Alpine79830:
STOP! I'm driving home from the sawmill in my 1966 rust colored 1/2 ton pickup with my old daddy's .38 pistol by my side. Clete and Kevin stop me and even though we have been friends for 30 years they stop me and advise me of my rights since someone driving a rust colored pickup just put a .356 hole thru Maybell's chest at the liquor store.

What to do?

... my cousin Vinny will help ... he needs help sleeping and choosing the right tie is all.

Once I found out it is a crime for you to lie to LEO but OK for them to lie to you, things changed. You could be told 'you're not a suspect' when you are, for example.

Nestled among the reasons not to flap one's gums is that you don't know all the laws. And that's not a qualified 'you'. Nobody - no LEO, no attorney, no prosecutor, no Supreme Court Justice, no legislators, nobody on SIGforum ... knows all the laws. We have some very knowledgeable folks in those fields here, and they will be the first to agree with this.

And, since you don't know all the laws, you don't know all the laws you might have inadvertently broken. Turning all 'chatty Cathy' might just wind up with you documenting some unintended micreancy, and once you've said that to an LEO, it's there on the record.

So, yeah, LEOs aren't your enemy - they are hard working professionals and we are lucky they are as good and honest as they are. And neither are folks in the DA's office necessarily evil. But things can gather their own momentum and if someone in the decision making chain decides to make an issue, or just takes a dislike to you and looks over transcripts of your interview....that throwaway line might just give them enough to charge you with some obscure violation. Or if you misspeak, and it turns out to have been 'a lie' then they can get you for that as well.

Yeah, if I'm a witness to a crime or a victim, I'm helping for all I'm worth. If I'm 'involved in a situation' however, or it's something out of right field with LEOs coming out of nowhere, then I'll be doing like the singing barristers suggest.

A problem with the “never talk to the police” mantra is that it can be a substitute for proper thinking and understanding of a situation. If you’ve just dealt with two armed robbers, one of whom you killed and one who ran away, what are you going to do then? Most of us would of course decide that we needed to mention the other robber to the police and give pertinent details such as a description, direction of flight, type of weapon, his name if we knew him, etc. But where do we draw the line between what’s okay to say, and what isn’t? Is it okay to mention that he might be wounded because you shot at him as he was running down the driveway?

“Was the other man injured?”
“Possibly.”
“Why possibly?”
“Because I shot at him.”
“Where was he when you shot at him?”
“Um … I’ve answered enough questions about him.”
“Really? (Thinking to himself, “Well, that’s something we’ll have to look into.”)

If our only plan is to not say anything, that’s now in pieces around our feet once we say anything. Once we start talking it’s more likely that we’ll end up saying something best left unsaid. There is no pat, simple plan that will always work to keep us out of trouble in a serious situation, and that’s why it’s important to think and understand beyond the “never.”

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
with that first video in mind what about giving your insurance company a statement when a claim is being made against you?

You have a contractual duty to cooperate with your insurer. You still have to be careful about what you say.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by enidpd804:
"Never talk to the police" is the dumbest advice lawyers give. There are more than a few innocent people who have had unnecessary long pre-trial jail time because they refused to say what actually happened to officers on scene. This varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but in my state, it's a misdemeanor crime to arrest someone when it appears they acted in self defense.

Try cases often, do you?

It may be true that there are times when talking to the police is okay. (This probably has a lot less to do with actual innocence than you suspect.) But knowing when those times are and what to say when it happens is impossible to convey to a potential client in advance. It would take a 500 page handbook to even begin to do the subject justice. And how many potential clients will have the smarts and experience to absorb such learning, even if you could give it.

So, the best advice you can give someone in advance who may be talking to the police in such a situation is to keep silent. A lawyer can undo silence, but undoing something that implicates the suspect is real work. And, if they are actually guilty, it may be impossible.

I believe you, jhe888.

Would you/could you please reconcile what these guys are preaching (ie: say nothing) with the five-point checklist that Masad Ayoob preaches ( LINK), four points of which are contrary to "say nothing"?

Hard to make honest music when you have no soul.



Good advice if you are guilty. If you are guilty, then absolutely don't take their advice...

If you are innocent... or a witness, or similar, then very stupid advice.

But very catchy commercial....

Ayoob himself, in point 5, talks about when to talk.

His first points, I think, assume you are not a suspect, although knowing where you stand can be difficult. I'd advise a little more caution than Ayoob seems to. You have to report the original crime, but I'd advise more caution in describing the facts beyond that.

As I said, there are so many considerations that keeping all the legal permutations in your head would be hard enough for a layman, especially just after having been in a shooting. Err on the side of reticence. Get your lawyer there as soon as you can.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
Ayoob himself, in point 5, talks about when to talk.

His first points, I think, assume you are not a suspect, although knowing where you stand can be difficult. I'd advise a little more caution than Ayoob seems to. You have to report the original crime, but I'd advise more caution in describing the facts beyond that.

As I said, there are so many considerations that keeping all the legal permutations in your head would be hard enough for a layman, especially just after having been in a shooting. Err on the side of reticence. Get your lawyer there as soon as you can.

While in almost EVERY instance jhe, I agree with you, on many, many topics...

In this instance, I think some of the posters, including me, say that ABSOLUTES, such as "NEVER TALK TO THE POLICE" are wrong, and beyond that, foolish advice.

Maybe if we stepped it back a bit, and changed the verbage from "NEVER TALK TO THE POLICE" to "IF YOU THINK YOU MAY BE SUSPECTED OF A CRIME SEEK LEGAL CONSUL BEFORE MAKING ANY STATEMENTS" we would be in much more agreement.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by enidpd804:
"Never talk to the police" is the dumbest advice lawyers give. There are more than a few innocent people who have had unnecessary long pre-trial jail time because they refused to say what actually happened to officers on scene. This varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but in my state, it's a misdemeanor crime to arrest someone when it appears they acted in self defense.

Try cases often, do you?

It may be true that there are times when talking to the police is okay. (This probably has a lot less to do with actual innocence than you suspect.) But knowing when those times are and what to say when it happens is impossible to convey to a potential client in advance. It would take a 500 page handbook to even begin to do the subject justice. And how many potential clients will have the smarts and experience to absorb such learning, even if you could give it.

So, the best advice you can give someone in advance who may be talking to the police in such a situation is to keep silent. A lawyer can undo silence, but undoing something that implicates the suspect is real work. And, if they are actually guilty, it may be impossible.

I have been involved in many cases, actually. Most of which didn't have to go to court or begin with an arrest because I was able to pick through the bullshit and find out what actually happened despite the, "I know mah rights!" attitude. I'm not buying the 500 page manual thing. Self defenders just need to break it down to some basics and include that as part of their training. It ain't that hard. And as far as the guilty ones go...that's your job.

quote:

Originally posted by DMF:

So, when your spouse or child is missing , and possibly abducted, you're going to wait for your lawyer before helping the cops try to locate them, and/ or apprehend the abductors?

Sure, you don't want to hinder the investigation. But on the other hand, who's always the first suspect in such cases?

quote:

Originally posted by egregore:
Sure, you don't want to hinder the investigation. But on the other hand, who's always the first suspect in such cases?

Yes, but if you refuse to talk when your child is missing, you will become the PRIME suspect. For cripe sake, you know dang well you aren't the one that abducted your child. Why in heck would you lawyer up? (unless you are guilty)

In a sketchy self defense scenario, the right/wrong evaluation might not be quite as clear.

I don't think some of you guys are understanding what the video is saying.

When I tell my son "Always wear your bike helmet" he understands that to mean when he's riding his bike. He doesn't wear it while grocery shopping.

The lawyers in the video are not saying "never talk to the police. Ever. About anything."

I love these threads. Nevah talk to da po-leece. (It completely ignores the fact that being an attorney isn't a public service, it is for profit. Being a roadside jailhouse lawyer never ends up well for the suspect, and they wind up needing an attorney despite the fact that if they'd just spoke to the cops they might not have. The attorney gets paid, and never has to do the time for the suspect that the suspect may not have had to do if he'd actually cooperated with the police. But, blanket advice like "never talk to the police" gets paid. There is no downfall to the attorney for saying this, but all kinds of downfall to the suspect.) BUT NEVER TALK TO THE POLICE, lol. People regurgitate this as if it is gospel.

When what they should be saying is "When you just got caught with a laptop full of kiddy porn, never talk to the police. (You're going to the pen anyways, it just makes my job easier when you pay the retainer)"

"NEBAH TALK TO THE PO-LEECE" is working so well in the southside of Chicago right now. It should go national and see if they can achieve the same results.

I love these threads. I can't think of one instance to where somebody asked for a lawyer, and we looked at one another and said, "well, fuck it, Applebees it is" nor one instance where someone asked for a lawyer and didn't go to prison anyways. The ones asking for a lawyer are just helping us know who to look closer at. Normal people in society talk to the police.

I get it that this pisses off attorneys. But, the truth is the truth. NEVAH TALK TO DA POL-LEECE is ok advice if you are guilty. Horrible advice if you are not. But, for every one person who was railroaded by the police, I can tell you personally a hundred that screwed themselves on their prison sentences by not talking.

My ex-wife is a cop, I never talk to her.

GGF

quote:

He doesn't wear it while grocery shopping.

I know a few that should.

I hate these kind of threads because I always end up more confused. But I still read them.



For perspective,

When a police officer is involved in a shooting on duty, what is the advice given him by his police union lawyer?

When a police officer is involved in a shooting off duty, what is the advice given him by his police union lawyer?

What general advice are police officers given by their police union lawyers prior to any incidents, to prepare them?

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
I hate these kind of threads because I always end up more confused. But I still read them.



For perspective,

When a police officer is involved in a shooting on duty, what is the advice given him by his police union lawyer?

When a police officer is involved in a shooting off duty, what is the advice given him by his police union lawyer?

What general advice are police officers given by their police union lawyers prior to any incidents, to prepare them?

The cops I train don't scream "LAWYER" and run away like a little girl crying. They cooperate. Then they ask for their attorney. And that is exactly how they are trained. And it still doesn't help, nor is it apples to apples. Admin under Garrity can compel them to talk.

Now comes the "thin-blue-wall" blah, blah, blah, blah by the usual suspects. The same things have happened when homeowners have used deadly force in their home here. Same process, same rules. Most importantly, SAME results.

I'll again point out only the ones that had something to hide declined any contact with LE and screamed "LAWYER". Even if they were cops.

Some act as if LE gets a free toaster over this. Talk, don't talk. It matters not to me. I can only tell you what I see day in and day out. I can only tell you the large number of people that talk themselves into going to jail with a "snitches get stitches" appeal, when otherwise it isn't even on the radar.

Feel free to roll the dice however the internet tells you to. YOU are the one that will have to do the time.

People will tell you what they want you to believe, real or imagined, even in a slick advertising ad. I only speak from what I see day in and out. Right down to the point that I can tell how guilty someone is by the counsel they retain. It also shows me how desperate they are. Think OJ.

The only truth is that you will be the one that has to do the time, no matter which side you believe.
Choose wisely.

This would be so much easier if life had a rewind button. Try it one way. If it doesn't work out, rewind and try it another way.

quote:

Originally posted by Alpine79830:
STOP! I'm driving home from the sawmill in my 1966 rust colored 1/2 ton pickup with my old daddy's .38 pistol by my side. Clete and Kevin stop me and even though we have been friends for 30 years they stop me and advise me of my rights since someone driving a rust colored pickup just put a .356 hole thru Maybell's chest at the liquor store.

What to do?

Do you have a cousin.... named Vinny?

Are you in Ala-fucking-bama?