quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by stickman428:
Does this mean green boots is going to get a few new neighbors?

After the Hilary Step fell down the mountain a few years ago, is Green Boots still there?

The boulder that gave the Hillary Step it’s distinct feature fell off in the 2015 earthquake. So, the “step” is technically still there, it just presents a different challenge and looks a lot different. That step is on the southern route which starts in Nepal. The overhang that contained the body of “green boots” and another climber is on the north east ridge, which is the route that starts in China. That route has the first and second step where a metal ladder is installed.

However unrelated- the bodies of the two climbers in that overhang are no longer there. It is believed they were moved/covered in rocks on the leeward side of the mountain during 2014 clean up efforts.

Also just for clarity since I’ve posted in here a couple times- while I have a good amount of knowledge of these routes and the mountain itself, it’s from an appreciation of the mountain only. I have no desire to climb it, and frankly can’t fathom why anyone would. If anyone really wants to “experience” those conditions, go about 50ft past the Lake of the Clouds hut in the White Mountains towards Mount Washington, NH in Jan or Feb when it’s blowing good. It’s a lot cheaper, closer, and will likely take away any desire to go anywhere like it that is very high up or remote.

quote:

Originally posted by Whisp:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by stickman428:
Does this mean green boots is going to get a few new neighbors?

After the Hilary Step fell down the mountain a few years ago, is Green Boots still there?

The boulder that gave the Hillary Step it’s distinct feature fell off in the 2015 earthquake. So, the “step” is technically still there, it just presents a different challenge and looks a lot different. That step is on the southern route which starts in Nepal. The overhang that contained the body of “green boots” and another climber is on the north east ridge, which is the route that starts in China. That route has the first and second step where a metal ladder is installed.

However unrelated- the bodies of the two climbers in that overhang are no longer there. It is believed they were moved/covered in rocks on the leeward side of the mountain during 2014 clean up efforts.

Also just for clarity since I’ve posted in here a couple times- while I have a good amount of knowledge of these routes and the mountain itself, it’s from an appreciation of the mountain only. I have no desire to climb it, and frankly can’t fathom why anyone would. If anyone really wants to “experience” those conditions, go about 50ft past the Lake of the Clouds hut in the White Mountains towards Mount Washington, NH in Jan or Feb when it’s blowing good.

I did a lot of climbing in the late 80s and early 90s. Most of the Northwest big ones. I had plans to climb Denali. I was young and in great shape. Then all the deaths on Denali in 1992, and I thought, why ? It's not worth it. They always say they "died doing what they loved". I think it is more about vanity than that.

quote:

I did a lot of climbing in the late 80s and early 90s. Most of the Northwest big ones. I had plans to climb Denali. I was young and in great shape. Then all the deaths on Denali in 1992, and I thought, why ? It's not worth it. They always say they "died doing what they loved". I think it is more about vanity than that.

Yeah, I love camping and sitting around a campfire too. That doesn’t mean I’d be happy dying in a tent that is on fire.

I just think it’s a meaningless thing people say because they don’t know what to say. Better I suppose than “Sorry your loved one drowned when their lungs filled up with their own fluid while simultaneously freezing to death surrounded by hypoxic down-suited zombies, maybe they should have just set themselves on fire in a tent instead”.

Also- AMS, HAPE, and HACE can’t be predicted, and have nothing to do with fitness. It’s just a dice roll any time you go above 14k, and the dice with your number on it gets smaller the higher you go. Altitude affects people differently, at different times. Some people can get mild forms of AMS at 10k. To my knowledge no one knows why.

My view on risk is this- if it’s sketchy (weather, conditions, spidey sense) I go home. I really don’t give a shit what others do. I spend time in the mountains because I like it. To me a summit is just a convenient place to stop and take a rest. Half the time you can’t see shit anyway. What I’ve found in years of climbing and spending time in mountains is most people don’t think like this, particularly when in a group. I have seen incredibly intelligent, skilled, and rational people make incredibly risky decisions to push on in bad conditions in a group. Decisions by their own admission they never would have made if they were by themselves. Call it group think, mountain madness, or misguided safety in numbers logic, whatever- it just is. Usually the only time I get antsy on a climb/hike/etc is if I encounter a large group of people. Even when dead tired I instantly go into extreme pass mode. If I ever tried to run a marathon I’d probably win just due to sheer panic.

quote:

Originally posted by Whisp:

quote:

I did a lot of climbing in the late 80s and early 90s. Most of the Northwest big ones. I had plans to climb Denali. I was young and in great shape. Then all the deaths on Denali in 1992, and I thought, why ? It's not worth it. They always say they "died doing what they loved". I think it is more about vanity than that.

Yeah, I love camping and sitting around a campfire too. That doesn’t mean I be happy dying in a tent that is on fire.

I just think it’s a meaningless thing people say because they don’t know what to say. Better I suppose than “Sorry your loved one drowned when their lungs filled up with their own fluid while simultaneously freezing to death surrounded by hypoxic down-suited zombies, maybe they should have just set themselves on fire in a tent instead”.

My view on risk is this- if it’s sketchy (weather, conditions, spidey sense) I go home. I really don’t give a shit what others do. I spend time in the mountains because I like it. To me a summit is just a convenient place to stop and take a rest. Half the time you can’t see shit anyway. What I’ve found in years of climbing and spending time in mountains is most people don’t think like this, particularly when in a group. I have seen incredibly intelligent, skilled, and rational people make incredibly risky decisions to push on in bad conditions in a group. Decisions by their own admission they never would have made if they were by themselves. Call it group think, mountain madness, or misguided safety in numbers logic, whatever- it just is. Usually the only time I get antsy on a climb/hike/etc is if I encounter a large group of people. Even when dead tired I instantly go into extreme pass mode. If ever tried to run a marathon I’d probably win just due to sheer panic.

Agreed

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
I agree with you about making choices, but the reality is that under current law, it is clear that the guide services will have liability if they let a known risk that high climb. I am observing reality, not making policy choices. But, it is the tradition in American tort law to put the duty on the party best able to recognize and mitigate the risk, and the guide services can certainly do that, so it isn't inconsistent with American legal practice. I recognize that a potential client is also able to do the same, but. just the same, so is the guide.

An unfortunate current reality that the government, the courts, etc work far too hard to protect people from their own stupidity and when bad things happen it is always someone else’s fault. This is totally broken and unlike many, I don’t blame lawyers for this, I blame society. If we accepted responsibility for ourselves and insisted that others accept responsibility for themselves, things would be much better.

quote:

As to the Nepalese, sure. But one might think that by not tightening up a little they will hurt their interests in the long run.

Of course. And the free market would provide corrective forces. No need for intervention.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
I agree with you about making choices, but the reality is that under current law, it is clear that the guide services will have liability if they let a known risk that high climb. I am observing reality, not making policy choices. But, it is the tradition in American tort law to put the duty on the party best able to recognize and mitigate the risk, and the guide services can certainly do that, so it isn't inconsistent with American legal practice. I recognize that a potential client is also able to do the same, but. just the same, so is the guide.

An unfortunate current reality that the government, the courts, etc work far too hard to protect people from their own stupidity and when bad things happen it is always someone else’s fault. This is totally broken and unlike many, I don’t blame lawyers for this, I blame society. If we accepted responsibility for ourselves and insisted that others accept responsibility for themselves, things would be much better.

quote:

As to the Nepalese, sure. But one might think that by not tightening up a little they will hurt their interests in the long run.

Of course. And the free market would provide corrective forces. No need for intervention.

Thats right. Those who need to take major risks to satisfy their vanity, can accept the consequences.

Forgive my ignorance, but is any company in Nepal really subject to US courts for lawsuits over liability? I suppose some of the tour booking companies have US locations or US-based partners that might be subject to US courts. But I can't see any slip and fall lawyer doing well with a case under Nepalese law. Even a place like that probably has waivers and disclaimers everyone has to sign, acknowledging they're doing something dangerous and could get hurt or worse. I'm positive, if you did this on the Chinese side of the mountain, they laugh at you for trying to hold someone there accountable. You're really on your own in China, when it comes to getting hurt due to your own actions or decisions.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
Forgive my ignorance, but is any company in Nepal really subject to US courts for lawsuits over liability? I suppose some of the tour booking companies have US locations or US-based partners that might be subject to US courts. But I can't see any slip and fall lawyer doing well with a case under Nepalese law. Even a place like that probably has waivers and disclaimers everyone has to sign, acknowledging they're doing something dangerous and could get hurt or worse. I'm positive, if you did this on the Chinese side of the mountain, they laugh at you for trying to hold someone there accountable. You're really on your own in China, when it comes to getting hurt due to your own actions or decisions.

I believe if you want to climb Everest, you need to understand what you are doing, and you should not attempt to assign liability to the guide service.

quote:

Originally posted by FishOn:
I believe if you want to climb Everest, you need to understand what you are doing, and you should not attempt to assign liability to the guide service.

I concur, but we are in the tiny minority. Even a few folks here have suggested others may be held liable for injuries suffered up there.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:

quote:

Originally posted by FishOn:
I believe if you want to climb Everest, you need to understand what you are doing, and you should not attempt to assign liability to the guide service.

I concur, but we are in the tiny minority. Even a few folks here have suggested others may be held liable for injuries suffered up there.

If one decides to attempt Everest, one should accept that they might die in the attempt. This is a very risky activity! Might as well be attempting to better the free-diving record or to solo El Capitan. Good luck to you. There should be zero insurance award to your heirs unless you paid for it up front.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
Forgive my ignorance, but is any company in Nepal really subject to US courts for lawsuits over liability? I suppose some of the tour booking companies have US locations or US-based partners that might be subject to US courts. But I can't see any slip and fall lawyer doing well with a case under Nepalese law. Even a place like that probably has waivers and disclaimers everyone has to sign, acknowledging they're doing something dangerous and could get hurt or worse. I'm positive, if you did this on the Chinese side of the mountain, they laugh at you for trying to hold someone there accountable. You're really on your own in China, when it comes to getting hurt due to your own actions or decisions.

The chance of any China's court siding with a non-Chinese citizen is less than 1%.

As a friend said one day heading out to do a wreck dive a few hours ride out into the Atlantic with the wave bouncing us around. This is big boy diving. Same goes for climbing at that level. Know the risks and make sure you have the ability to do the climb.

In 1999 I spent nearly 3-weeks on Denali attempting to get on top, weather and group dynamic issues doomed our attempt. We did single-carry sleds from the Kahiltna and that killed any notion of doing bigger mtns or, expedition-style climbing. While memorable, it was not enjoyable, my mtns these days are limited to alpine-style weekend trips. Dealing with the crazy weather, the anxiety of freight-train like avalanches around you not to mention eating ramen, pita bread, and peanut butter daily...no thanks. That year, a couple of Spanish climbers had to be helo'd off the mtn with a broken leg and the British had a SAS team there doing some training and one of their guys sled down a long slope burning his body on the ice. Base camp was fun, best memory was sitting on the open-air shiters in the sun, staring at The Wall of Shadows on Mt.Hunter, which Greg Child had climbed a few year earlier.

If there weren't enough reasons to avoid Everest...



Mount Everest has become an ‘open toilet,’ staggering amount of human waste found on its slopes

https://www.foxnews.com/world/...roblem-official-says

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmanic:
Ten have perished already this year. Insanity.

Also known as a normal Friday night in Chicago.....