SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge It Looks Like the Annual Craziness on Mount Everest is in Full Swing
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Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici |
 _________________________ NRA Endowment Member _________________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C.S. Lewis | |||
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| Protect Your Nuts |
Yeah, this has been a heavy topic of conversation/contention in my circles since about 2014. There is some serious socio-economic shit going there that the video kinda glosses over, and they tilt the piece only giving the viewer the impression that the Sherpa are exploited. Maybe, but it’s a lot more complicated than that. For better or worse, Everest has brought in the money. The average salary for that region of Nepal is $50 a month. A “climbing Sherpa” will make $2500, Sirdar (think lead Sherpa) 5k or more per season, which is typically 2.5 months. There also bonuses paid if they get their clients to the top. So, basically a Sherpa on Everest at the minimum in 2.5 months make 25x what they would otherwise make in a year. The trade off of course is the risk. Were they historically exploited? Probably, most people were. Are you currently exploited if you take the money and accept the risk? No idea, question for bigger brains. My opinion/point is everyone has a choice, and everyone in the equation has at least some culpability. For years western guiding companies ruled the mountain. While I won’t speak for all, I will say in my experience that AAI, IMG, and RMI all have stringent requirements for any of their expedition style climbs. Everyone couple years I’ll do a 6-8 day class with IMG and each time I’m vetted prior to even being allowed to sign up for the class. Additionally, if you don’t show up in shape they will kick you out on the first day. These are classes- on domestic turf. International climbing expeditions are a whole different type of vetting. Until 2014 the bulk (80% estimated) of the guiding outfits were western owned. That seemed to start to change in 2010, and started to cause a lot of friction on the mountain. After this event- https://www.outsideonline.com/...st-ueli-stecks-story things really seemed like they changed. Then the Sherpa deaths caused by the serac fall in 2014 and 2015 earthquake caused even more angst in the Sherpa communities. Today the majority of the outfits on the mountain appear to not be Western owned, it’s estimated now that it’s shifted to the fact that the old guiding companies are now the minority (like 20%). In their place are dozens of local treking companies that started by offering logistics to climbers/trekkers, then started offering full packages on their own. Unfortunately the expertise isn’t there, and they’re typically cheaper, and they’ll take anyone which is a recipe for disaster. Seven Summit treks is Sherpa owned and has been heavily criticized over the years because they will take anyone. Really- they’re totally open about it: https://www.sevensummittreks.c...t-expedition-service “If you want to experience what it feels like to be on the highest point on the planet and have strong economic background to compensate for your old age, weak physical condition or your fear of risks, you can sign up for the VVIP Mount Everest Expedition Service offered by Seven Summit Treks and Expeditions.” Big surprise, they have the (estimated) highest death rate of guiding company- https://mobile.abc.net.au/news...afety-record/7442460 In fairness, I have 2 friends who used them for logistics only (permit, shipping; IE Yak caravan, and base camp services; cooking,etc) at Cho Oyu a few years ago and said they were great for that, but they sure as hell wouldn’t climb with them. So.... just like anything else involving people and money- complicated. Personally, the fairest summary I’ve read about this mess is here- https://www.google.com/amp/s/w...too-many-deaths/amp/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "deserves" ain't got nothin to do with it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower  |
I wonder how important that I-climbed-Mount-Everest pussy (that you're never going to get) seems when you're gasping out your last breaths on the slopes of Everest. | |||
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Member |
My apologies. I don't use Grey Poupon either.  What am I doing? I'm talking to an empty telephone | |||
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| Member |
LMAO! What am I doing? I'm talking to an empty telephone | |||
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| Little ray of sunshine  |
The Western guide services know they will be sued into oblivion if they let a middle aged fat man like me try to climb Mt. Everest. As they should be. But a Nepalese guide service has nothing to worry about. Go ahead sue them in Nepal. They don't have any money you'll be able to find anyway. So they let anyone with $60,000 give it a go. It will take tightening the permit process to fix that problem. It is about that simple. The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything. | |||
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| Muzzle flash aficionado  |
Meh. It's a very dangerous activity with a good chance of dying. I don't understand the interest in doing it and would never attempt such a thing. (At my age and condition I have trouble walking up a small hill.) So--when someone dies making that attempt, I yawn. It was their choice and they knew (or should have known) the extreme danger. It was their choice. flashguy Texan by choice, not accident of birth | |||
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| Member |
The rub is understandable to a degree, here's a bunch of Western companies, trying to implement 'professional practices' however, some of it will rub the local cultures and customs wrong. Mix in the financial incentive and the ability to bypass whatever self-imposed limitations (unqualified clients) the Western services have set-up to regulate themselves, then layer-in the nascent Maoist views that have filtered through some of the Sherpa communities' youngsters...there's a lot of issues. You get some aggressive Chinese or, Indian businessman who has been turned down by the Western services, yet they've got a wad of cash burning a hole in their wallet but little skills worthy of even being there, hard to turn that down, especially when your own gov doesn't care. | |||
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| Ammoholic |
I dunno. Maybe I’ve just had too much coffee this morning, of maybe the libertarian in me is hyperactive this morning, but it seems to me that if a middle aged fat man chooses to do something dangerous with a well known non-zero probability of being fatal, then he ought to be able to pay his money and take his chances.
Sure, we might think Nepal is screwing up and not managing their resource well, allowing anyone and allowing over-use it, making things more dangerous. It is their resource, should it not be their choice? If it is too dangerous, there is a good chance the demand may wane a bit. ETA: I guess I hinted at it, but ought to make it explicit. I’m in favor of freedom and free market solutions. I don’t see any need for courts or any governments other than those that have jurisdiction mucking that up. Middle aged fat guys that have the money and inclination to get themselves dead doing something most of us think is nuts ought to be free to do so. The rest of us ought to be free to make our own choices too. | |||
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| Ignored facts still exist |
I totally agree on this point. It's kind of like helmet laws for adult riders. Someone said, "Hey dude, you might hurt yourself, there ought to be a law," then then a little bit of free will is lost. ---------------------- Let's Go Brandon! | |||
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| Do No Harm, Do Know Harm |
And they don't eat up public safety resources getting saved, either. Knowing what one is talking about is widely admired but not strictly required here. Although sometimes distracting, there is often a certain entertainment value to this easy standard. -JALLEN "All I need is a WAR ON DRUGS reference and I got myself a police thread BINGO." -jljones | |||
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I'm Fine |
Eventually the climb to the top will be over the tops of frozen bodies and garbage and empty O2 canisters. Not really walking on ice or bedrock, etc. Just snow and ice covered debris (organic and inorganic debris). ------------------ SBrooks | |||
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| Member |
Due to my Achilles tendonitis, it'd be nice if a sherpa can summit, with me on his back the whole way. Of course I will get down and proudly stand on my own for the obligatory summit selfie. | |||
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| Member |
I was questioning how "emergencies" are handled on the mountain. Is there rescue insurance? If I break my leg near the summit do they just push me off to the side and say good luck? | |||
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Member |
No, just "Well, he's fucked".  _________________________________________________________________________ “A man’s treatment of a dog is no indication of the man’s nature, but his treatment of a cat is. It is the crucial test. None but the humane treat a cat well.” -- Mark Twain, 1902 | |||
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Fighting the good fight |
Depends on the situation. In the highest elevation "death zone" above 26k feet, climbers rarely have the time or energy to save anyone without killing themselves too. Even recovery of the corpses is usually not feasible, since 110% of the person's energy and will is needed to simply get themselves back down to safety. So numerous injured/disabled climbers have necessarily been abandoned to their inevitable deaths near the summit, but occasionally they are helped down the mountain by other climbers. Helicopter rescues at the upper elevations near the summit are basically impossible. The air is simply too thin to provide sufficient lift, and the winds typically far too strong. One custom helicopter was able to reach the summit in 2005 on a test flight, but it was specially modified, was not carrying passengers or medical equipment, and benefitted from being able to wait weeks for perfect atmospheric conditions. https://www.wearethemighty.com...er-to-summit-everest However, if someone is injured at a lower elevation, or can be assisted down to one of the lower elevation camps, then they can potentially be rescued by helicopter. Helicopter rescue is generally available up to ~21k feet, weather-permitting. | |||
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| Official forum SIG Pro enthusiast  |
Does this mean green boots is going to get a few new neighbors? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The price of liberty and even of common humanity is eternal vigilance | |||
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| Little ray of sunshine |
I agree with you about making choices, but the reality is that under current law, it is clear that the guide services will have liability if they let a known risk that high climb. I am observing reality, not making policy choices. But, it is the tradition in American tort law to put the duty on the party best able to recognize and mitigate the risk, and the guide services can certainly do that, so it isn't inconsistent with American legal practice. I recognize that a potential client is also able to do the same, but. just the same, so is the guide. As to the Nepalese, sure. But one might think that by not tightening up a little they will hurt their interests in the long run. The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything. | |||
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| Fighting the good fight |
The 250ish corpses abandoned on Everest got a few new neighbors. | |||
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| Little ray of sunshine |
After the Hilary Step fell down the mountain a few years ago, is Green Boots still there? But yes, if you collapse above the last camp, you are extremely unlikely to get any help. No one has the strength to help another person get down. You will almost certainly be left to die. The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything. | |||
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SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge It Looks Like the Annual Craziness on Mount Everest is in Full Swing
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