quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
A chisel can be used as a screw driver, just as a screw driver can be used as a chisel. But neither serves in its incorrect use as well as would the proper tool for the job.

In a college class I attended, "Gloria" said, "I wansted to axe Jonatan a question." We knew she meant she wanted to ask Jonathan a question, so she got her point across. But, quite a few of us - including Jonathan - were unable to keep from chuckling.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
You have a serious problem with reading comprehension. I didn't claim anyone was ignorant. I suggested some may be ignorant and may choose to remain ignorant, or may choose to behave as if they were.

I have excellent reading comprehension. You write poorly.

Your backhanded attempt doesn't alter the fact: the original poster has attempted to "educate" and is incorrect. Only insofar as one particular use of the phrase is he correct: the thrust of his argument is that all others are wrong and "uneducated," and from you, "ignorant."

You are both wrong.

"Begs the question" correctly refers to fallacy only in that particular context, but has other correct uses in their own context, including the most common application: the same against which the original poster rails.

While it is true that the origin and original use, or etymology of the phrase concerned logical fallacy or circular argument, that origin was some centuries ago. Doubtless you have noticed that language has evolved from the sixteenth century.

Today, "begs the question" has multiple uses, each correct in context. Arrogance is the grammar nazi assumption that one knows more than all others, and that all others are therefore ignorant or incorrect. That is a logical fallacy, and a circular argument. It is also irony, as "begs the question does NOT only refer to logical fallacy.

The true irony of your comments is the reality that while you, and the original poster are busy belittling others for their alleged "ignorance" and uneducated status, by sticking to your claim that "begs the question" has only one correct meaning or application, you are expressing ignorance.

It has more than one meaning, as already referenced, and those additional meanings, and application, are correct.

The original poster would have been correct to state that "begs the question" has a use of which he believes many are not aware, but he didn't do that. He claimed it's the only use, and all others are wrong (as do you). You are both incorrect, and you double down on not only your insults, but your inaccuracy. Those who refuse to learn, you say, are ignorant; yet that's clearly your path here, and frankly, no one will care whether you get it, or not.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

E.g.: Some are simply unaware the phrase "begging the question" properly refers to a logical fallacy, rather than meaning "to demand, or prompt the question."

If you had used "in addition to," instead of "rather," you wouldn't have just typed a logical fallacy, but you did. This of course, begs the question about who is aware of the correct meaning of the phrse. Correctly, you would have stated, "Some are simply unaware (that) the phrase, "begging the question" properly refers to a logical fallacy, as well as meaning, "to demand, or prompt the question."

The assumption of a falsehood, incorporated into your statement, with the use of "rather than," is a logical fallacy. Your statement is based on something which is not true, and is therefore illogical and a fallacy.

Would you agree that the dick measuring contest is infinitely more annoying than what the OP is talking about.

What do you get if you win?

Discussion, it appears, is only smiled upon when everyone says the same thing. Like cheerleaders.

There is little that is more annoying, than the company of yes-men.

Of course, without two sides to a coin, it's a drawing of a coin, and lacks some measure of dimension.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
Discussion, it appears, is only smiled upon when everyone says the same thing. Like cheerleaders.

There is little that is more annoying, than the company of yes-men.

Of course, without two sides to a coin, it's a drawing of a coin, and lacks some measure of dimension.

You talk funny, never heard someone say, "I like arguing for no fucking reason" like that.

But hey, some people shit with their feet on the toilet seat, who am I to argue.

Don't mind me, I'm just bored at work.

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
You talk funny, never hear someone say, "I like arguing for no fucking reason" like that.

But hey, some people shit with their feet on the toilet seat, who and I to argue.

Don't mind me, I'm just bored at work.

OH. MY. WORD. Hahaha. I’ll never forget this day. Thank you, sir.

James.

Epic.

That definitely begs the question

Yeah...that was kinda epic.

Hey, don't you go dissin' Bruce Lee! He had washboard abs!

The acceptance of "begs the question" as a phrase meaning "suggests the question" is a recent change. While it is true that language evolves, and often evolves in just this way, the recency of this changes means that it grates on the ears of many. That is what you are hearing here.

And, I think it is also true that this change in meaning will lead to the loss of the use of the phrase as describing a logical error. Many (if not most) hearers will come to think the phrase means only "suggests the question." Then, when we want to refer to the logical fallacy, we will have to use some awkward explanation instead of the neat, handy three-word construction "begs the question."

So many here are being prescriptive, and not merely descriptive. And those people have the better side of this debate.

This evolving language concept fascinated me more than 30 years ago when I learned that nuclear waste sites have warning signs written with symbols because as far into the future that the site will still be harmful, the languages of today will no longer be recognized.

Ah it looks like this pot is getting well stirred. Which "begs the question" - was clarity of the usage of the phrase the original posters intent or a complaint that the phrase was no longer used exclusively as intended?

Ah as I have added a little vinegar to the pot, will take a break.

Begging is undignified, even for a question.