The fact is that present vernacular is gramatically correct, and is proper use in a sentence. Use of "begs a question" is correct when couched in place of other similar terms. The original poster's comments are correct in one narrow context, and it is most assuredly not the realm of the "educated" (that's offensive, mate).

The original posters comments are incorrect, in attempting to construe to phrase as limited to one vernacular or application, because that is absolutely not so.

Your "proper way" and "educated way" is not the only proper use. So sorry to disappoint the grammar nazis.

It's a shame that many of us will never rise to your "educated" level, despite our own alleged education, but when you start tossing insults like that, I'm content to remain in my hovel.

quote:

Originally posted by henryaz:
 
... Methinks you are fighting a losing battle.

That doesn't mean the battle isn't worth fighting.

We all fucked up, bet yall that talk fancy and drink with ya pinky up also have ya toilet paper coming off the bottom instead of the top.

You likely use salt to purge ya crawfish even though it's a myth.

You probably eat a really fancy meal, ruining a 60$ buzz cause PBR is beneath ya!

We all fucked up from the floor up, and if the worst I do is misuse a phrase, we'll then I'm pretty GD proud of myself.

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
We all fucked up, bet yall that talk fancy and drink with ya pinky up also have ya toilet paper coming off the bottom instead of the top.

I always suspected that the proper way to place the toilet paper roll is so that the paper will come over the top towards you. I made this assumption because if it rolls off the back, then you have to touch your hand against the wall to get a hold of it. But, the case was settled when I learned that TP with a fancy print on it won't show unless the paper rolls off the front of the roll.

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
We all fucked up, bet yall that talk fancy and drink with ya pinky up also have ya toilet paper coming off the bottom instead of the top.

TP coming off the top is better, unless you have a cat.

I, for one, thank you sigfreund for posting the correct grammatical usage of the phrase, and I also thank all the other members who, over the years, have posted the correct meanings and usages of various misused words and phrases. I don't understand the the resistance to this knowledge and appreciate the lessons I've either learned and forgotten, or never knew to begin with.

Thank you Sigfreud, its always good to learn or relearn the correct use of words and language. I have always been a poor grammarian but I strive to be better.

HK Ag

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

It’s not my intention to offend anyone by pointing out who is more likely to understand the origin of the expression being discussed and to use it in its original sense. The simple fact, however, is that people who have been educated about logic and its fallacies are less likely to use it in the more modern, corrupted (okay, evolved) way that we so often see nowadays. I don’t, of course, expect to hold back the tide, but I can do what’s possible to try to keep my own feet from getting wet.

The Bible is the sole repository of the Lord’s word because it says so in Revelations.

As for popular vernacular making usage legit, you may be right, but it ain’t something you wanna hear coming from your brain surgeon right before surgery. After all, you want him to do the surgery good.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
The original posters comments are incorrect, ...

You were incorrect in your previous post and you're incorrect in this one.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
It's a shame that many of us will never rise to your "educated" level, despite our own alleged education, ...

Nah, what's really a shame is when people consciously choose to stop learning.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
... but when you start tossing insults like that, I'm content to remain in my hovel.

There was nothing insulting in the OP. It was merely an explanation of the meaning and correct use of "begging the question."

Now, you may prefer to remain ignorant, but, I wager, there are many others who would prefer to neither remain ignorant nor purposely behave in a manner suggesting they're ignorant.

It appears that “final approach” and “final descent” are interchangeable, as are aviation accident and incident. Oh, and everything outside the terminal is the tarmac, because of common vernacular. Accuracy be damned, we wouldn’t want to offend anybody with correct usage.

I’m still working on “then” vs “than”.

This is certainly true, and it bothers me.

But the people who misuse "beg the question" also use apostrophes in plural words, so I pick my battles.

quote:

Originally posted by henryaz:
 
The misuse of "begs the question" is rampant, in the media, as well as fiction and non-fiction works. Methinks you are fighting a losing battle.

I gave up long ago. When someone as gifted as an orator as Mike Rowe continually and egregiously misuses the phrase "begs the question," I know the battle is lost.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
It's a shame that many of us will never rise to your "educated" level, despite our own alleged education, ...

Nah, what's really a shame is when people consciously choose to stop learning.

Not to mention crow about that decision by embracing one form or another of identity politics because someone dared post a thread about not just the correct usage, but the actual meaning, of a phrase - and damn that elitist snob for it!

I've been accused of being too literal for years by people who exercise no discipline whatsoever in the way they use words and who inevitably use that as a way to cover up a complete lack of clarity in the way they "think" - but who (for some reason) always expect me to read their minds and just magically "know what they're saying". I never quite understood why they assumed that I'm supposed to make an effort because they would not.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

You were incorrect in your previous post and you're incorrect in this one.


Nah, what's really a shame is when people consciously choose to stop learning.


There was nothing insulting in the OP. It was merely an explanation of the meaning and correct use of "begging the question."

Now, you may prefer to remain ignorant, but, I wager, there are many others who would prefer to neither remain ignorant nor purposely behave in a manner suggesting they're ignorant.

The original poster was most certainly incorrect in his assertion. He claims he can't hold back the tide, but there's no ocean here, and there's no tide coming in. There are multiple correct uses for the phrase: logic is but one.

Did you not understand the Miriam-Webster article, or did you not bother to read?

"Begs the question," like many words and phrases, has multiple uses, and multiple meanings. The application of logical fallacy is but one.

More apropos is the common use, quite legitimate, in which one states, "begs the question," as a segue into a secondary or tertiary point. As a phrase, it often stands the place of a semi-colon.

When the original poster states that only "educated" people would understand what he's saying, or accept it, it's offensive. No other way around it. Certainly the original poster is correct that "begs the question" has application in terms of logical fallacy, but he is incorrect in his assertion that all other uses are wrong.

The assertion that any other use is wrong because it is "evolved" might suggest that we should all be speaking old English, but that's ridiculous. We speak English today, and today there are more uses, and different uses, than there were in the sixteenth century. If the original poster had said that the etymology of the phrase was logical fallacy and that it represented one use of the phrase, there would be no issue: he created an issue by asserting his view is correct, and that all others are not, and moreover, that those who are not, are uneducated. After all, he insists that only educated people would agree.

It's an insult, and yes, it's offensive.

https://www.merriam-webster.co...lay/beg-the-question

https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/beg+the+question

https://stancarey.wordpress.co...question/#more-21868

The original poster asserts that the original meaning, or the etymological root of the phrase, is the only acceptable use, as it's the original, though such logic in language is fallacy, and would serve to deconstruct our entire language and it's modern use.

Let's not get started on "decimate," and it's actual meaning: to kill every tenth man. Or ten thousand other words, phrases, and uses which have a different meaning, or multiple meanings, today that did not exist at the root of the word or phrase.

Even the "educated" can correctly use the phrase in a sentence other than logical fallacy, even if the original poster asserts that to do so proves us "uneducated." Be a purist if you will, but speak for yourself and not others, and don't assume that the world is ignorant and uneducated because it doesn't follow your limited view.

The original poster simply insulted by implying that those who didn't follow his limited view, were uneducated, asserting that only the educated would understand. You double down and simply call everyone "ignorant" who doesn't chase your purist, narrow path. Also insulting, just more overt. Still wrong.

Gotta love the grammar nazis who are so arrogant that they're above the fray. When one's nose is so high in the clouds, does it snow on one's brain? That begs the question about the presence of a brain. But then, that would be an insult, wouldn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by henryaz:
 
The misuse of "begs the question" is rampant, in the media, as well as fiction and non-fiction works. Methinks you are fighting a losing battle.

I gave up long ago. When someone as gifted as an orator as Mike Rowe continually and egregiously misuses the phrase "begs the question," I know the battle is lost.

Don't give up hope. I used to hear Cam Edwards use "begs the question" all the time on NRA News. One day, probably after an epic jhe888 "Pitch your bitch!" on the subject, I wrote a post on his website. I praised his show, but finished with a quick paragraph about the correct meaning of begging the question. To his credit, I have not heard an incorrect use since. I'm not saying that it was my post. It could be coincidental, but he seems to have adopted the correct usage of "begs the question."

Whenever I hear it used incorrectly, especially by journalists, it smacks of pseudo-intellectualism. The same as when all journos adopt each other's obscure vocabulary. Remember when you heard "apoplectic" on every news program for a month or two? It's like journalists spend their time in intellectual echo chambers where they just repeat each other's vocabulary in an effort to sound thoughtful and informed. Using "begging the question" in lieu of "raises the question" appears the same to me.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
Gotta love the grammar nazis who are so arrogant that they're above the fray. When one's nose is so high in the clouds, does it snow on one's brain? That begs the question about the presence of a brain. But then, that would be an insult, wouldn't it?

You know, for someone who can be quite pedantic about a plethora of subjects, your offense here is quite ironic. You often roll into threads and essentially tell everybody they don't know what they're talking about. ALL. THE. TIME.

You're only as offended as you choose to be.

A tool is a thing used to accomplish work, or express from a thing, what we find important.

The word is a tool. No more, no less.

A tool can have many uses, and a tool can be used correctly or incorrectly.

But all of that, is both true and false, at the same time.

For a tool is a thing used to accomplish work, or express from a thing, what we find important.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
You double down and simply call everyone "ignorant" who doesn't chase your purist, narrow path. Also insulting, just more overt. Still wrong.

You have a serious problem with reading comprehension. I didn't claim anyone was ignorant. I suggested some may be ignorant and may choose to remain ignorant, or may choose to behave as if they were.

E.g.: Some are simply unaware the phrase "begging the question" properly refers to a logical fallacy, rather than meaning "to demand, or prompt the question." They may actually appreciate being informed as to their usage error and may choose to correct it.

Others may choose to take being informed of their previous ignorance as an insult, let misplaced pride overrule common sense, and continue behaving as if ignorant out of some odd form of protest.

And, with that, I'm done with you. Too bad, really, because you have often in the past cured my ignorance on certain topics in which you have superior education and expertise. (And, btw: As often as not you do that in quite an arrogant manner, Mr. Pot.)

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
A tool is a thing used to accomplish work, or express from a thing, what we find important.

The word is a tool. No more, no less.

A tool can have many uses, and a tool can be used correctly or incorrectly.

Precisely. A chisel can be used as a screw driver, just as a screw driver can be used as a chisel. But neither serves in its incorrect use as well as would the proper tool for the job.