Actually, they'd not even know about it if ATF weren't forcing me to get a city zoning adjustment permit for operating a business out of my house. ATF said I have to have this permit before they will reconsider my FFL app, but my investigator is otherwise pretty cool, said they'd refund my fee and fast track my re-application once I have the city permit.

Anyway, the permit process entails my mailing notification letters to nearby neighbors and then the city put a sign in my front yard. The real Karen across the street emailed me with some questions and seemed satisfied by my responses. Yesterday the city forwarded me an email from another Karen, this one really making a fuss and encouraging the city to deny the app.

I've never met this woman, but I know she lives nextdoor to a man who runs a full-fledged furniture shop out his garage, complete with sights, smells, sounds and customer visits with on-street parking. None of that bothers me at all, but all of it requires the same permit I'm applying for and I know he doesn't have one, as I asked him about the application process one day. He had no idea what I was talking about.

Anyhoo, have any of you guys been through this? I replied to the city's email, asking if I needed to respond to this neighbor or just be prepared to address it in my hearing next week. They said it just for my info. I think one complaint out of 21 notifications isn't too bad. But we'll see.

Don't you hate those who want to fight with you by email?
It's just a chickenshit way of solving problems.
Good Luck on your endeavor.

Where do you live. I wouldn’t want the entire neighborhood I have a gun business. That’s crazy talk.

Can you pull the public record on the guy next door to her, see if she objected to his permit or not, if not, then it's not about a business being there but the type of business. Presume you could use that to combat her complaint about allowing a lawful business to be permitted in the neighborhood since she had no objection to businesses being there.

If she didn't file a complaint it could be used as part of your response as well.

You could also see if there are other home businesses operating in the neighborhood that she did or did not file an objection to...

The guy running the furniture business has never applied for the permit, told me he had never heard of it. I really don't want to make a fuss or to drag him into it. He even told me he'd like to have an FFL in the neighborhood. Totally cool guy. But he is doing everything that trips the requirement for the permit. It's just that no one has complained about him and he doesn't need a federal license to make and sell furniture, so no one is making him get this city permit.

Mrs. Lee is also concerned that the sign in our yard says the zoning adjustment app is for the purpose of an FFL. This is AZ and, while I have a nice collection, I'm sure most of the neighborhood has guns in the home. The Karen who emailed the city said she was worried about "more guns in the community lower our property values." How do you combat such nonsense? Door knock her and try to educate her?

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
How do you combat such nonsense? Door knock her and try to educate her?

Never argue with an idiot. They’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

There is nothing that can be said. I would wait to see if she even shows up at the hearing. If not, then it’s a moot point. If she does, then you can speak politely, and logically to the people in attendance. That’s really the best you can do. Point out that as a responsible gun owner, the goal is that no one even knows you have a business being run out of your house, which then would have zero effect on property values.

I'll add that I know there are two other FFLs in the neighborhood. I called them both. One, again, had never heard of this permit. His ATF IOI never mentioned it to him and he had no issue getting the FFL. The other was made to get the permit, but it was during Covid, so his hearing with the city was online. He just does stippling on poly frames, but does it all by mail, so no customer visits. He told me he had a Karen show up at the hearing, but that his landlord went to bat for him and he got the permit and then his FFL.

I’m home based and have been for 14 years. How could they deny you yet allow all the other home based businesses? The ATF needs to stop checking with HOA’s and local governments and just issue the license. I think it’s just another way to deny issuing licenses. Fortunately my city changed the ordinances to ensure home based businesses are allowed so the ATF will not deny licenses. Another home based FFL went to the Cithy Council and since they are pro gun, they changed it for us.

The City doesn't know about the other home-based businesses because they have either not applied for the permit and/or no one has complained about them and/or their business doesn't require dealing with an authority who can then demand the permit.

I'm trying to do it the right way. If I'm denied, I'll appeal. If that's denied, I'll call the FFL whose ATF IOI didn't require the permit and ask to deal with that IOI. I don't want to piss off my IOI, but at that point I have nothing to lose.

Perhaps you can tell the Karen concerned about property values that you won’t be a Hi Point master dealer?? Good luck with your endeavor!

Put a business sign in your front yard that says, "GUN-FREE HOUSE THAT WAY --->>>".

What happens if the City says they can’t approve your permit because you don’t have a license?

When we started a preschool at my church, the bathrooms, kitchen, and septic system had to be blessed by an inspector from the county health department. The inspector came out and the first thing he points out is the fence around the playground was not raccoon proof and he wouldn’t give his blessing until it was. The fence was a beautiful brand new aluminum one installed by professional contractors who did pull a permit that the county had already signed off on.

After two months, the health inspector’s supervisor blessed our bathrooms, kitchen, and septic system saying that the health inspector found no issues with those and that the fence was outside the scope of what the health inspector was sent to inspect.

Is whether or not you have the City permit outside the scope of the ATF?

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Is whether or not you have the City permit outside the scope of the ATF?

I'm quite sure ATF doesn't have authority to enforce local code. But I'm not going to win that fight with them.

You do not have these problems if you live in the country. Many of these issues are resolved with who you know in the community. A poor guy I know had a landfill go in right behind him. Nothing he could do.

I would like a property with some acreage, but it's not going to happen anytime soon.

I also have to wonder if ATF is going to be loosening up on some stuff with the incoming admin. One of the FFLs in my neighborhood told me he was told he could be audited once a year, but it'd more likely be every five yrs. I think he's eight yrs in and has had one audit. I doubt ATF is getting flooded with apps now. Maybe they'll ease off on the regulatory BS and focus on going after real bad guys.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
I'll add that I know there are two other FFLs in the neighborhood. I called them both. One, again, had never heard of this permit. His ATF IOI never mentioned it to him and he had no issue getting the FFL. The other was made to get the permit, but it was during Covid, so his hearing with the city was online. He just does stippling on poly frames, but does it all by mail, so no customer visits. He told me he had a Karen show up at the hearing, but that his landlord went to bat for him and he got the permit and then his FFL.

my shop is in a residential area, and has been for years,
we had to call the county for permission, back in the 80's and got it over the phone, with a slip mailed the next week,

never seen the zoning sign placed for anything other than big stuff, like wedding venues, or some retail store like a 7/11 etc,


now, the ATF, and I think this started a good while ago, will require some zoning, but all I have heard is that a 07/SOT (I am an01/SOT) needs to be zoned business/ industrial or similar,

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
I would like a property with some acreage, but it's not going to happen anytime soon.

I also have to wonder if ATF is going to be loosening up on some stuff with the incoming admin. One of the FFLs in my neighborhood told me he was told he could be audited once a year, but it'd more likely be every five yrs. I think he's eight yrs in and has had one audit. I doubt ATF is getting flooded with apps now. Maybe they'll ease off on the regulatory BS and focus on going after real bad guys.

typically you will be audited just before renewal, which means every 3 yrs,

some more, some less

word on the street here is that if your FFL is involved in a lot of traces, you are getting an inspection, soon,


I know some dealers that went 15 yrs with out a visit, or inspection

That’s some odd requirements right there. Around here (DFW area of Texas) ATF does not get involved in zoning type issues, at least not that I’m aware of. I’m licensed for NFA goodies and manufacturing right in my office in a congested neighborhood. Zoning issues are handled by the city. There are either laws on the books prohibiting firearm related businesses or there’s not. I got my DBA from a county courthouse and called the city I live in to ask about “any prohibited home based businesses”. None existed, that’s all ATF cared about here. I say all that just to say it seems kinda like someone is jamming you up, maybe not.. just odd. Are you in an HOA by chance?

Just tell Karen that the Hells Angels need a convenient place to buy their guns.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Is whether or not you have the City permit outside the scope of the ATF?

I'm quite sure ATF doesn't have authority to enforce local code. But I'm not going to win that fight with them.

The have the right to revoke, deny, or prosecute actions based off local code though.

Was the same with my FFL, I was zoned for business but no walk-in traffic. My agent was very nice but made it clear if anyone did in-person business he would revoke my license.