quote:

Originally posted by dry-fly:Are you in an HOA by chance?

Yes, but the HOA doesn't care. Their only rule on home businesses is that it can't be seen, heard or smelled from the outside.

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:

The have the right to revoke, deny, or prosecute actions based off local code though.

Was the same with my FFL, I was zoned for business but no walk-in traffic. My agent was very nice but made it clear if anyone did in-person business he would revoke my license.

I know they're doing it and no one wanting to be a home-based FFL is going to mount a court challenge on this. But they not only don't get to enforce city code, they also don't get to enforce it selectively, which they're doing.

Anyway, my IOI said it's possible the city approves my permit with stipulations, like you mention, allowing no walk-in traffic. In that case, does it mean I can just do transfers out to other FFLs? The FFL who does my transfers for me now lives pretty far away. So we meet up at a gas station or somewhere, I hand him $15, sign the pre-populated 4473, he hands me the package and I'm on my way. That's no walk-in traffic for him, but I'm pretty sure he's bending the rules because he knows me and the transaction technically has to take place at the address on his FFL.

Rick Lee- Please don't take offense, but...
I'd be hesitant on having an FFL living by me again. Do you know how much money I spent with my neighbor working for a Gun Shop / Police Supply Company?

THOUSANDS!

Everyone here thinks it would be heaven!
Nope... It's just EXPENSIVE!

(Damn, I miss Craig!)

I wish you luck with the FFL!

I got denied my first time because the city and HOA didn't want me doing it. I got refunded and the ATF lady told me that if I wanted to try again, she'd make sure the process would go faster.

A year later, I reapplied after asking my exwife if I could use her address in a neighboring city (our NFA Trust is setup at her house, our Trust bank account is still there, both my kids reside there 50% of the time) and she said fine. Her house is across from city hall and the police department. They said it was fine. The chief of police said great, you're closer than my usual guy.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
You do not have these problems if you live in the country. Many of these issues are resolved with who you know in the community. A poor guy I know had a landfill go in right behind him. Nothing he could do.

Maybe...

I'm rural and had to go before the county board of adjustment and get a variance. It was no big deal because the closest things I have to neighbors don't care.

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
I would like a property with some acreage, but it's not going to happen anytime soon.

I also have to wonder if ATF is going to be loosening up on some stuff with the incoming admin. One of the FFLs in my neighborhood told me he was told he could be audited once a year, but it'd more likely be every five yrs. I think he's eight yrs in and has had one audit. I doubt ATF is getting flooded with apps now. Maybe they'll ease off on the regulatory BS and focus on going after real bad guys.

typically you will be audited just before renewal, which means every 3 yrs,

some more, some less

word on the street here is that if your FFL is involved in a lot of traces, you are getting an inspection, soon,


I know some dealers that went 15 yrs with out a visit, or inspection

I have been licensed since 2018 and have never been audited. I would think a large number of trace requests, multiple sale forms, and probably thefts would get you on the audit fast track. I would also bet that proximity to an actual ATF office is a factor. I'm a couple hours from the nearest industry ops guys. They aren't likely making a trip out here for nothing. Other licensees in my area report same.

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Is whether or not you have the City permit outside the scope of the ATF?

I'm quite sure ATF doesn't have authority to enforce local code. But I'm not going to win that fight with them.

The have the right to revoke, deny, or prosecute actions based off local code though.

Was the same with my FFL, I was zoned for business but no walk-in traffic. My agent was very nice but made it clear if anyone did in-person business he would revoke my license.

Yeah your licensed business 100% has to be in compliance with local laws. Zoning issues are one of the leading causes of denial per a couple of the guides out there. The industry ops folks are fastidious. My zoning variance said something like "sales and repair" and when I applied to be an 07 manufacturer, I needed to go back to the county to ensure that that was also acceptable.

I have been a home base FFL since 1997. Moved three times since then. Two times I had to deal with city council and the other was the county, which I am in now. This allows neighbors to contest it (never an issue on my end).

It has been 12-13 years since my last application. If I remember right there were wording terms on the app, kinda like this "for this license, do you meet all city and county zoning laws and requirements to run a home business". My last one was for the county and the only stipulation they put on me was not to run a shooting range for business, easy enough for me. All my neighbors are awesome and have transferred for most of them, free of charge, lol.

But I could run any other type of business out of my house and there is no one to make me get this local permit, because I wouldn't need any other kind of license issued by an authority who cares. I sell insurance and I have had a customer come to the house before. But the AZ Dept. of Insurance doesn't ask or care. My license gets auto-renewed every four yrs as long as I submit my continuing ed. documents. I don't get audited. I could have customers come over all the time and, as long as no one complains to the city, I'd be fine.

quote:

But I could run any other type of business out of my house and there is no one to make me get this local permit,

But then you'd be breaking the law. You're learning that if you make enough laws then you can make anybody a criminal. These laws are then selectively enforced to torment those with whom some disagree.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:

quote:

But I could run any other type of business out of my house and there is no one to make me get this local permit,

But then you'd be breaking the law. You're learning that if you make enough laws then you can make anybody a criminal. These laws are then selectively enforced to torment those with whom some disagree.

This bears repeating. The solution to a problem is not to make a new law about it as so many people often clamor for. There are already way too damn many laws!

I got FIVE opposition notices today. This is obviously a coordinated effort by the main Karen across the street. She seemed satisfied by my responses to her emailed questions a month ago. Today she sent a scathing message to the City after I received four others all today. No way they just all decided to send these today. Some were pretty well written and passionate, if totally misinformed. One was even from someone who lives over 1/2 mile away. So there's no way she even saw the sign the City put in my yard and she was not on the list of neighbors I was required to mail the letters to. I think my goose is cooked. I sent polite, professional and detailed responses to the ones that had email addresses attached. Looks like I'm gonna be a non-FFL "occasional rotator of my collection."

Does the opposition have to voice and substantiate probable damages? Or is their burden of "I don't like it for no reason" sufficient to deny the application?

I have no idea. Some of these were very articulate, mentioned property values, ratting me out to the HOA (which follows City code on the matter), mentioned child safety, increased vehicle traffic, "I'm a gun owner, but" and on and on. I think, at this point, the best I can hope for is they issue the permit with stipulations that I have no visitors to the house at all. Still wouldn't be too bad, as I could use USPS for shipping to other FFLs, just wouldn't be able to sell locally very easily.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:


The FFL who does my transfers for me now lives pretty far away. So we meet up at a gas station or somewhere, I hand him $15, sign the pre-populated 4473, he hands me the package and I'm on my way. That's no walk-in traffic for him, but I'm pretty sure he's bending the rules because he knows me and the transaction technically has to take place at the address on his FFL.

That is not bending the rules, that is a clear violation and when he gets caught it is not going to be good for him. Do not even consider doing that if you get a license.

I am not sure why they would issue a license with no walk in traffic. All you could do is transfer out and shipping is very high if you do low volume. You could do gun shows if there are a lot in your area.

Consider getting to know some of your city officials so they can get something passed that allows a home based FFL. I’d sue my HOA if they opposed me since there are many other home based businesses in my neighborhood. The HOA does not have enough money to really fight it. The city is another story.

Meeting you anywhere outside his place of business is a violation of the ATF regs He will lose his license if caught. An FFL holder is only allowed to conduct transfers and business at his licensed address, Or at a gun show in his state of licenseure. C&R can be conducted out-of-state but only between licensee's.

Edited to add: I just caught the "pre-populated 4473" that can get him prison time. The dealer cannot fill out a 4473 for you. If a person fills out the 4473 for someone else, example you cannot write, it must be witnessed by 2 others and signed by them. This is a major violation of 18 u.s.c.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
The FFL who does my transfers for me now lives pretty far away. So we meet up at a gas station or somewhere, I hand him $15, sign the pre-populated 4473, he hands me the package and I'm on my way. That's no walk-in traffic for him, but I'm pretty sure he's bending the rules because he knows me and the transaction technically has to take place at the address on his FFL.

quote:

I think my goose is cooked. I sent polite, professional and detailed responses to the ones that had email addresses attached.

I wouldn't toss in the towel just yet. Generally you would be entitled to a hearing at some point. Responding to those who are complaining is of no use, as they don't make the decisions.

When you're in front of those who do make the decision, you can address the complaints and explain why they don't hold water.

My hearing is this Thursday at 1:30pm if any local SIGforumites want to attend.

Good luck, Rick! I hope you kick their ass.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
My hearing is this Thursday at 1:30pm if any local SIGforumites want to attend.

Any chance it will be online?

quote:

Originally posted by mrvmax:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:


The FFL who does my transfers for me now lives pretty far away. So we meet up at a gas station or somewhere, I hand him $15, sign the pre-populated 4473, he hands me the package and I'm on my way. That's no walk-in traffic for him, but I'm pretty sure he's bending the rules because he knows me and the transaction technically has to take place at the address on his FFL.

That is not bending the rules, that is a clear violation and when he gets caught it is not going to be good for him. Do not even consider doing that if you get a license.

I am not sure why they would issue a license with no walk in traffic. All you could do is transfer out and shipping is very high if you do low volume. You could do gun shows if there are a lot in your area.

Consider getting to know some of your city officials so they can get something passed that allows a home based FFL. I’d sue my HOA if they opposed me since there are many other home based businesses in my neighborhood. The HOA does not have enough money to really fight it. The city is another story.

I had a guy that did this for me for a while. I didn't know it was illegal or I wouldn't have entertained it. Can't remember if I asked or he offered.

As a licensee, I wouldn't dream of it. Aside from the risk to the license, I imagine I'd have "real job" (LEO) problems.

quote:

Originally posted by smlsig:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
My hearing is this Thursday at 1:30pm if any local SIGforumites want to attend.

Any chance it will be online?

I don't know if you can log in virtually. The link for my case is www.phoenix.gov/pdd/planning-zoning and my case number is ZA-829-24-2. Starts at 1:30pm Mountain Time. I could really use some support. Tons more came out of the woodwork today and I'm public enemy #1 in the neighborhood now.