quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
And a ray of hope emerges. I was just copied on an email to the City from a couple who had written to oppose my application. This was their message:

Dear Zoning Board,
After communicating with the applicant we have decided to withdraw our opposition letter.
Thank you,

That's a good sign, was it the furniture guy, probably not wanting it stirred up?

I'd keep my cool and just have solid answers, short and to the point about any opposition letters points brought up, address them with a good strong retort, calmly and concise.

No, that message was from someone I've never met or seen before.

Now get this.

Tues. night I came home from work and a neighbor was in his driveway, so I went over to chat, hadn't met him before. He was totally cool, said he'd use me for transfers if I get my FFL and wants to go shoot with me sometime.

10 minutes ago I got a scathing email forwarded by the City from this man's wife! And she sent it last week, but it's just now getting to me and two days after I had a very pleasant chat with her husband in the driveway. I have to think he mentioned our conversation to her. But who knows what goes on there?

I don't know what the political climate is in your neck of the woods, but I deal regularly with our local alderpersons, commissioners, etc.

Generally speaking they encourage property owners to use their property in any legal way possible, including running a business. They are well aware that a number of others will object, especially citing "property values". They also know that the majority of these objections are BS.

Absent a real compelling reason my locals would be hard pressed to turn you down. Hope your locals are similar.

Just make sure you have some legitimate answers should the traffic question come up (it will).

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Just make sure you have some legitimate answers should the traffic question come up (it will).

That and many more questions that a nosey Karin can come up with, ie; parking, hours of operation, number of customers, and a host of other dumb questions that only Karin can come up with.
Keep cool, be business like, if there is a chance to appeal an unfavorable decision, do it and bring some professional help.
Also, not a good time to burn bridges. It isn't over till it's over.

Any update?

Just got back from my hearing and the use permit was denied. Five neighbors showed up and two of them were represented by a lawyer. Not joking. This guy was out of central casting, just a dramatic bag o’doosh. If I had been a judge, it would have been hard to listent to any argument he made. The hearing officer did interrupt him a few times to remind him that what he was claiming I was doing was something I had already addressed and explained how I was not doing it.

Anyway, the reason given for the denial was negative impact on property values. Mind you the three other neighborhood FFLs and non-permited businesses have been left alone and, so they obviously haven’t impacted property values. I need to find out if I appeal, whether I only have to address that reason with no new issues allowed to be brought up. Or is it starting the process all over again? And an appeal is another $490 fee. Maybe I can just reapply for my FFL and hope the IOI doesn’t require me to get the use permit.

Are they saying any business operating in your neighborhood would have a negative effect on property values or just a gun business?

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the reason given for the denial was negative impact on property values.

Easy enough. Hire a local real estate professional to put together some sales history of homes around other FFLs in your area.

Everybody complains about property values, but the actuality is that property values are rarely impacted, especially by these types of businesses.

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Originally posted by Rick Lee:

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Is whether or not you have the City permit outside the scope of the ATF?

I'm quite sure ATF doesn't have authority to enforce local code. But I'm not going to win that fight with them.

Yeah, but they are entitled to require that you are conducting business in a legal manner, including observing local zoning or land-use ordinances.

The lawyer mentioned a little on property values, but more on that I was opening a gun store in a residential area and would have a neon sign with guns and ammo on the shelf for anyone to walk in and buy anytime. Just comical BS.

A few neighbors were sincere about property values. My realtor is a close friend and shooting buddy and his brother is Phoenix PD. He's totally willing to present at an appeal hearing, if I go that route.

Appeal and use the other FFL's as justification. I would fight it and use every business around me to do it. If their regulations do not specifically say no to an FFL, and they allow other home based business, then they are discriminating against you. I would also look into the backgrounds of those that complained and the board members. But that's just me.

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Appeal and use the other FFL's as justification. I would fight it and

Have your realtor friend get you comparable sales data from sales close to existing FFL‘s?

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Originally posted by HarrisonLLC:
If their regulations do not specifically say no to an FFL, and they allow other home based business, then they are discriminating against you.

There is no language anywhere on FFLs, not in the HOA CCRs, nor in the City code. They're totally allowed.

Hell, if we're just talking any home-based FFL in Phoenix and not just in my neighborhood, there have to be a few hundred of them. Does anyone think Phoenix home prices are going down? Ha!

Right now the only thing kind of holding me back from filing an appeal tomorrow is my nextdoor neighbor, whom I really like and we look after each other's stuff, is thinking of listing his house for sale. And I don't want to cause trouble for him, as an appeal means the City would post another sign in my front yard.

Sure, I'd love to have the Karen with the lawyer rack up a few more hours of legal fees to fight my appeal. But I think my next avenue is going to be to find someone in authority at whichever dept enforces code compliance and let them know of an egregious inequality in the application of the law and code and give them some detailed examples and compare them to my case.

Are you planning on having 'open to the public' store hours or is it by appointment only?

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Originally posted by doublesharp:
Are you planning on having 'open to the public' store hours or is it by appointment only?

Not only HELL NO, I won't sell to anyone I don't know or who isn't referred by a friend, and I'd probably only sell then if they had a CCW, which exempts them from a NICS check.

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Originally posted by Rick Lee:

quote:

Originally posted by doublesharp:
Are you planning on having 'open to the public' store hours or is it by appointment only?

Not only HELL NO, I won't sell to anyone I don't know or who isn't referred by a friend, and I'd probably only sell then if they had a CCW, which exempts them from a NICS check.

You will have random people show up, once word is out. An example I use to live in a small town 2,200 people. 12 years ago on Christmas Eve, at 11:00 at night, our house was pitch black, and someone knocked on the door. I don't know what pissed my wife off more the fact someone had the balls to knock on my door at 11:00 at night or the fact that I got up and sold that man a gun for his son for Christmas. Needless to say Christmas morning was extremely cold between me and my wife. 6 months later we bought our first brick and mortar..

One nearby FFL told me he bought something from PSA and that landed him in their FFL directory and then he got some random shipments. He refused some, transferred others out to a nearby B&M store. But he never mentioned someone knocking on his door. Hell to the no on that. I wouldn't even answer my door for an unexpected visitor.

Word gets out. I am on PSA's website because I and my coworkers buy from there and I've been contacted by some people in the neighborhood.

Also, there was a city cop who was an ffl for a bunch of senior citizens in the area, when he retired and moved out of state, he told them all to call me. I never met that cop or anyone from that department, but I ended up with a bunch of new, repeat customers.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
Anyway, the reason given for the denial was negative impact on property values. Mind you the three other neighborhood FFLs and non-permited businesses have been left alone and, so they obviously haven’t impacted property values.

IANAL, but my understanding, having gone through something similar as the (would have been) plaintiff side was that damages need to be expressed and not speculative. Since they are just speculating that property values might be negatively impacted, it shouldn't hold water. Either prior situations in other areas or a sale here where the house price was impacted because of FFL biz. Attribution is difficult here is well - hard to associate direct causal relationship.

Sounds like property values is just a red herring.

Property values in Phoenix are insane. They weren't always like that, but the California locusts have driven them through the roof. I can't believe anywhere in Phoenix has had a drop in values. I don't think anyone could make that case with a straight face. But when the hearing officer gave his verdict and his reason, there was no more rebuttal time allowed. Perhaps I should have taken more note of that concern and included it in my final remarks. But I really thought he was just gonna pull out the number of for and against letters and emails they got and that would be it. But he never even mentioned those.