quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:

quote:

Originally posted by ulsterman:
There is no such thing as a "gun show loophole"

It is more accurately described as the "gunshow no-gun tracking registry loophole".

It isn't a damn loophole. You can make private sales without BATF involvement. You can make those sales at home, at Starbucks, at the gym, and at a gun show. It isn't a loophole and don't buy into the anti-gun rhetoric that it is.

quote:

Originally posted by walker77:

quote:

Originally posted by KevinCW:

Get your FFL then.

That simple huh?

Do you know anything about the process to getting licensed?

I'm not arguing with anything you said in your post. With our BS laws a person must have a license to do something like that. But they make it next to impossible to get one if you operate out of your house. And it says right on the application that you can't apply if you are going to do gun shows only. So then what?

Not so young Jedi! I just got my FFL license. The ATF has no problem with home based FFL's as long as you intend to make a profit, whether as a gunsmith or dealer. If you intend to sell only at gun shows they will not issue you a FFL. The application can be found online at ATF.gov. The cost for the license is $200 for a 3 year period. It took almost 2 1/2 months for the local agent to schedule his interview with me. It went smoothly and a week later (just this Saturday) I had my FFL.

quote:

Originally posted by blindref:
That's an interesting question.

Unfortunately there is no hard number of how many guns you can buy and sell in a certain amount of time written into the laws DMF posted. It's a very gray area, probably by design. The ATF has a lot of discretion as to who and when to bring somebody up on charges.

So at what point does a collector become a dealer - 5, 10, 50, 100 buy / sell gun transactions a year?
The term "occasional" is really left open to interpretation.

What if the person has a regular non gun related 9 to 5 job as their sole source of livelihood, but is an avid collector who buys and sells regularly?

There is nothing on the 4473 form that asks the amount being paid for the firearm that is being bought or transferred. The ATF has no way of knowing if the seller or transferor is making or losing money on the transaction.

It would make for an interesting court case, but I wouldn't want to be the one on trial, or making case law.

Courts have identified several factors relevant to determining on which side of that line your activities may fall, including: whether
you represent yourself as a dealer in firearms; whether you are repetitively buying and selling firearms; the circumstances under which you are selling firearms; and whether you are looking to make a profit. Note that while quantity and frequency of sales are relevant
indicators, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or
two transactions took place, when other factors were also present.

Source DOJ Do I Need A License To Buy And Sell Firearms

I do it all the time....

quote:

Originally posted by AZSigs:

quote:

Originally posted by blindref:
That's an interesting question.

Unfortunately there is no hard number of how many guns you can buy and sell in a certain amount of time written into the laws DMF posted. It's a very gray area, probably by design. The ATF has a lot of discretion as to who and when to bring somebody up on charges.

So at what point does a collector become a dealer - 5, 10, 50, 100 buy / sell gun transactions a year?
The term "occasional" is really left open to interpretation.

What if the person has a regular non gun related 9 to 5 job as their sole source of livelihood, but is an avid collector who buys and sells regularly?

There is nothing on the 4473 form that asks the amount being paid for the firearm that is being bought or transferred. The ATF has no way of knowing if the seller or transferor is making or losing money on the transaction.

It would make for an interesting court case, but I wouldn't want to be the one on trial, or making case law.

Courts have identified several factors relevant to determining on which side of that line your activities may fall, including: whether
you represent yourself as a dealer in firearms; whether you are repetitively buying and selling firearms; the circumstances under which you are selling firearms; and whether you are looking to make a profit. Note that while quantity and frequency of sales are relevant
indicators, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or
two transactions took place, when other factors were also present.

Source DOJ Do I Need A License To Buy And Sell Firearms

Thank you for posting that link.

So according to the DOJ, as long as you don't represent yourself as a firearms dealer, you don't say you are looking to make a profit, and you say the reason you are selling is because you're a collector / enthusiast working on your collection, you fall on the side of not needing an FFL.

BUT ... "whether you are repetitively buying and selling firearms" is the gray area that comes into play.

How many transactions in a specific time period is considered repetitively buying and selling firearms? I believe this is purposely written in a vague manner so they have the discretion of picking and choosing who they go after.

quote:

Originally posted by blindref:

quote:

Originally posted by AZSigs:

quote:

Originally posted by blindref:

Thank you for posting that link.

So according to the DOJ, as long as you don't represent yourself as a firearms dealer, you don't say you are looking to make a profit, and you say the reason you are selling is because you're a collector / enthusiast working on your collection, you fall on the side of not needing an FFL.

BUT ... "whether you are repetitively buying and selling firearms" is the gray area that comes into play.

How many transactions in a specific time period is considered repetitively buying and selling firearms? I believe this is purposely written in a vague manner so they have the discretion of picking and choosing who they go after.

I'm not an attorney so I can't give you legal advice.

This thread has a lot of trigger words .......

quote:

Originally posted by AZSigs:

quote:

Originally posted by walker77:

quote:

Originally posted by KevinCW:

Get your FFL then.

That simple huh?

Do you know anything about the process to getting licensed?

I'm not arguing with anything you said in your post. With our BS laws a person must have a license to do something like that. But they make it next to impossible to get one if you operate out of your house. And it says right on the application that you can't apply if you are going to do gun shows only. So then what?

Not so young Jedi! I just got my FFL license. The ATF has no problem with home based FFL's as long as you intend to make a profit, whether as a gunsmith or dealer. If you intend to sell only at gun shows they will not issue you a FFL. The application can be found online at ATF.gov. The cost for the license is $200 for a 3 year period. It took almost 2 1/2 months for the local agent to schedule his interview with me. It went smoothly and a week later (just this Saturday) I had my FFL.

Look bud, I've been a home based dealer for almost 6 years.

Second, just because you were able to get a license doesn't mean EVERYONE can. Around here they like to focus on zoning and hoa's. They know most hoa's won't allow home based businesses and they know in most towns residential zones are just that. My inspector even went so far as to lie to me saying my town wouldn't allow home based businesses. I asked her if that's the case, why did they give me a business license? She dropped the attitude after being caught in a lie.

Third. You wasn't visited by an agent. It was an IOI (industry operations inspector). They don't even carry a gun. The most power they have is a phone call to their boss to have you shut down.

Who's the young Jedi now?

quote:

Originally posted by walker77:

quote:

Originally posted by KevinCW:

Get your FFL then.

That simple huh?

Do you know anything about the process to getting licensed?

I'm not arguing with anything you said in your post. With our BS laws a person must have a license to do something like that. But they make it next to impossible to get one if you operate out of your house. And it says right on the application that you can't apply if you are going to do gun shows only. So then what?

Why are you yelling at me? You kind of ARE arguing with what I said...

All I said is that I both support, and believe it is totally legal for a hobbyist, or enthusiast who buys/sells in firearms for the purpose of an honest collection to be allowed to trade without a license.

I also said, that someone (as the OP stated) who trades in firearms FOR PROFIT, needs a license.


I'm not sure, at all in fact, how THAT makes me the bad guy.

In fact, I"m pretty sure my post, states that people should follow established laws.

I didn't advocate for additional gun control laws. I didn't advocate for additional "loopholes."

I didn't advocate for ANYTHING, except following established laws....

Please... Tell me how I am the bad guy here for telling people to follow established laws and not getting on the wrong side of the ATF or other federal agencies???

I'm terribly confused as to what I did to upset you?!?!?!

The guy I buy my guns from is a table top FFL. He is also an LEO. He is actually a Class III dealer too. He does a great job, and is well versed in the law.

Yes, I am sure there are hoops you have to jump through to be a dealer. I'm sorry for that, and it sucks. I'd prefer there weren't. I fail to see how MY advice in this thread harms you, or is in ANY way offensive to you.